Speaker: you’re listening to a new episode of The Brave Technologist, and this one features Anna Yuan, the founder of pera, a Stablecoin, FinTech and asset manager, PERA’s team embraces AI natively in their workflow with all hands on deck learning to code a design with AI tools. Anna built yield Bingo as a tutorial for new stable coin users to earn yield, and previously she was the head of stable coins at the Solana Foundation.

In this episode, we discussed how they’re incentivizing users and helping them feel comfortable to hold and spend their assets on chain. Why people still don’t trust blockchain and what Web3 companies should do about it. How parentis combine the benefit of the savings account into an asset you can spend with USD Star and how agents and stable coins will interact over time.

And now for this week’s episode of the Brave Technologist.

Anna, welcome to the Brave Technologist. How are you doing today?

Speaker 2: Great. Thank you for having me, Luke.

Speaker: excited about this one for [00:01:00] sure. I know you’ve got some background in the stablecoin world and, you know, leaving at Stable Coins at the kind of the Salona Foundation.

What did you see there that you saw that made you think like there needs to be something new here? You know,

Speaker 2: compared to a lot of emerging technologies, stable coins is one of the most fundamental things that could change how money works. And I believe to me, the definition of money is, is the language of human coordination.

So a lot more people should be building in this space and I just didn’t see that many. And there’s so much more to build. If our thesis is that stable coins and assets should exist on the blockchain in open on open blockchains, there are like far few, too few teams and talent building in this space.

Speaker: Yeah. I think also for, thank you for, for your service, I think it’s one of those things early we need still early, so many more, like we need so many more builders, building things that will get actual use from people. And, and I totally agree. And you know, [00:02:00] I, I mean let’s dive a little bit kind of into what you’re doing too.

Like, you know, what problem are you kind of ultimately trying to solve with with your technology, with PERA and, and who benefits most from that solution?

Speaker 2: So is solving for high friction and rigidity in existing structured products and asset management in general. So think of. A lot of people listening to this podcast might be familiar with the, value prop of stable coins may cross border payments cheaper.

That’s fairly obvious by now, and you see like dozens of companies building this space. What’s less obvious is that stable coins and just. In general, tokenized assets make structuring them much simpler and easier. So what we do is our first product is USD star. It’s a liquid yield token that produces 24 7 yield that you can redeem at any time and it’s liquid.

That product can’t really exist in [00:03:00] using traditional rails. So the rails of existing financial products. Are the ceiling that limits how we can innovate for, for newer assets. And that’s really important. If you think about the evolution from, like for us in, in America, we started with like mutual funds couple decades ago, and then ETFs and etf.

Exploded because they’re much better. You can buy and sell them during the day. And now we have these on chain assets, which people now call them vaults. And I think that vaults are the ETF moment. We’re just super early and we still have to figure out a lot of things. But from there you can do so much more because once people’s assets are on train, like the.

The pie in the sky. Visions are like, you can start selling insurance, you can structure corporate debt. You can do better loan origination and, and all those things like buy car, mortgage, et cetera. A lot of ’em can be done on chain when you couple with the right off chain, like real world information.

And that’s [00:04:00] when it impacts the economy and it impacts like how financial. How the financial system works. And with that, why I originally got excited about about stable coins is when I was at Salona Foundation working on payments. Nobody had anything to pay with, and that was a, a key unlock. So if we want people to, to pay with stable coins, well one of the best ways is not to force them to on-ramp at the point of payment, but rather give them a reason to keep their assets and money on chain.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that’s like a key point too. ‘cause I mean, I know you would see, you would see these announcements like where it was almost like kind of cart before the horse where it’s like, okay, cool, we’ve got like visa working with us, or we’ve got this big powerful name kind of working with us. But then you’re like, this whole middle sections missing of like.

Okay. But like that’s gotta compete against how you’re using Visa already, right? and so I think, you know, this focus of how do we get past some of these problems in this friction is like super important. You know, [00:05:00] let’s, let’s drill down a little bit, like into the you mentioned USD star.

I think is one of the things I found super interesting. About what you’re doing and, maybe you can correct my thinking on this if I’m wrong, but it kind of works like a liquid staking token a little bit, where instead of having to kind of do all these calculations, the yields kind of directly built into the.

The value or the price of the, the token is that, maybe we can unpack that a little bit because I think it’s super interesting. And, and it might turn people on to like, you’re more about how that works and, and help with the user story a little bit.

Speaker 2: So when we thought about designing a yield coin, the, for people who are power defi users, you might have heard of Athena or like Sky.

Typically the synthetic dollars, which are dollars, not one to one backed by Fiat. Yeah, currencies. Usually there’s a, a synthetic stable coin, which is like a $1 version, and then there’s the yielding one where you have to stake it. When we thought about simplifying user [00:06:00] experience to the max, we said, okay, what is a one click thing that users can put their money into that would be become productive?

So for us, we opted for a no $1 version. So everybody who puts USD right now, we support USDC, but In our portfolio. There are also other stable points. When you deposit USDC, it automatically spits out USC star and USC star sits in your wallet, and you can see the price increase as, as the yield gets re attributed to, or the yield gets attributed to the, to the token.

So it’s kind of like a, we use the USDC that you deposit. To and dynamically allocate that across different asset classes. Right now it’s all on train asset classes. Specifically. what is on train? There’s mostly lending. There’s some RWA, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of blockchain based.

Quant Delta Neutral Trading Strategies, which that’s a [00:07:00] mouthful. What, what I really means is taking the money and using an algorithm or a system to intelligently profit with, with like very, very little downside risk because you’re not taking a, a long Bitcoin position or something like that. So combining those different assets.

Combining those different yield sources together, we are able to generate it is like the investing 1 0 1. We’re able to generate a diversified portfolio for our users. And when you have many, many of these users together, you’re able to dif diversify much more than individually going to like five or 10 different defi protocols.

We’re signing up for RWA protocols, so that’s the first value prop and we can expand that into other assets, like if you want, bTC star or Gold Star. And also if you want to do this might be like a bit more advanced for some of the users, but for T Tranching. So when we thought about how some different users have different risk appetites and how do we [00:08:00] have this trade off, this is a place, or this is an example of where the rails are, the ceiling.

Traditional finance has very, very basic tran and it takes. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, to structure them with lawyers. And we can do that on chain in a much more flexible, easy manner. Like once we have trenching out, we can trench really anything any token on chain.

Speaker: That’s wild.

Yeah. Well, and, and I think like, just to kind of bring it back to users a little bit, so like, it’s almost kind of the way I kind of mental model this a little bit is like you have, okay, even if you’re like a power user, right? Like you can put your assets to kind of work in these pools in Perena and then get these USD star tokens minted that you could.

Freely kind of use, but it’s almost like you kind of have a, a savings account benefit built into the dollars that you’re spending. So like by holding them, they’re kind of accruing this added value, but you can also put them to work productively. Like in a world [00:09:00] where let’s say you know, Starbucks is accepting stable coin payments, right?

Mm-hmm. You could theoretically like. Go and pay with USD star and then the rest of the USD star in your wallet just continues to like, earn more value. Is that a fair way to frame it?

Speaker 2: Yes. And that’s the beauty of blockchain. You can take BAT, you can take USD star, you can take anything you can spend it at the point of sale.

And that’s not possible with with traditional banks or with traditional banking because your money has to sit. The checking account instead of like, you can’t even spend from a savings account. So with, with blockchain, you can spend anything that has liquidity, which we do. And other tokens like BAT also have, you can even better borrow against your assets and spend in USDC or USDT and still earn yield and you pay, pay like a difference.

So that’s particularly good. If you want to hold onto your, volatile assets you can. And the difference I [00:10:00] think is where it doesn’t matter if every single credit card or OR card that you hold uses USD Star or supports USD Star, all that needs to happen is There is liquidity venue for USD star to go into another asset.

Could be USDC, could be sold or, or whatnot that the card accepts. And that’s just like mind blowing for, and it is not possible at all for a traditional fiat system.

Speaker: Yeah, it’s wild too. ‘cause I think that like, there’s such an appetite, right? Like for disruption just at the, almost at the ground level now too with, with the way the economy’s going and, and with what people are seeing as possible.

And that’s kind of one of those things where you see it thrown around a lot. Right. Like that, oh you know, de bank or, or not de banking, you know, kind of like these tools are powerful or whatever. But like, I want people to understand okay, this is one of those examples of how disruptive this can be because, you can have an asset that can kind of [00:11:00] act like a savings account.

And have this ability to spend, you’re really kind of making things more efficient. and a lot of these things, like I had contractors working at our house, right? Like, and these fees that they have to deal with, with these card companies and with this like, traditional kind of spending rails.

They will like prefer, Hey, I’ll give you a discount, like if you just pay me in cash or like a check because I don’t wanna have to deal with these extra percentages. Yeah. So it’s kind of like a mix of factors here where like, this is what I really dig about what you all are doing. Because especially starting kind of with with USD, as the next.

Example because it kind of shows you different ways that the technology can disrupt what people are used to dealing with through like an intermediary, right? where my dollars are way more powerful if they’re also earning while they’re sitting in my wallet. You know? It’s pretty rad, I think.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So the payments value prop is super clear, especially when you’re dealing with like. B2B cross border or remittances. It’s not just the 3.5% that [00:12:00] your, your carpenter or is paying, but like 7%, 10%. And once the money hits the receiver, which maybe in an emerging. Market, they have no way to save.

They can only save it if they choose to keep it in USDC or USDT. They’re earning 0% yield. If they choose to off ramp it, they might be eating local currency inflation. So by being able to provide a Permissionless Defi based product to these users. We give them an option to, to start earning and start saving more intelligently compared to doing nothing with the dollars they receive.

Speaker: It’s one of those magic unlocks. Like I think, you know, if, if you think, and this is one of the things like being in the us it’s not as apparent, but like when we talk to vendors outside the US and people out users outside the us, you know, the ability to, to get access to banking, it, it’s not as easy as as it is in the us.

And so like, if you have some of the benefits of this, it’s just like how you can tokenize, you know, [00:13:00] equities and things like that. You can start to get this. Benefits of exposure or use, right. anywhere, which is pretty, pretty cool. I mean, how, how, like, just kind of change it gears a little bit too.

I mean, there’s this world in crypto of like kind of centralized finance and like decentralized finance and like, how, how are you thinking about the, the, is there a convergence of those two and how parentis assigned decisions can kind of like work together with that?

Speaker 2: Very much so. I think the 2021, like Wild West, pure, pure Defi is not going to 10 x or a hundred x our adoption.

It is definitely the convergence. From a product structuring perspective, you simply cannot get the level of capital velocity that real economy has without touching anything that’s centralized. The moment you start touching real world, real world assets or the real common economy, you, you start having off-chain agreements or off-chain structures [00:14:00] in it.

But from a user perspective, you can still keep the. The beauty of defi is composability and easy access and, and the ability to like move quickly without being in walled gardens so that when we, when we design our products at Perha, the access point is defi first, so anybody can access it as a token.

However, the underlying some of what, some of which already touches R’s. Those are tokenized, rws token, real world assets, tokenized rws that go into some sort of off-chain asset, but they, they stay on chain. And over time we might even directly take positions in off-chain assets that need to be represented on chain.

So it, it is definitely more complicated because now you’re no longer just touching smart contracts. However, arguably I think it’s safer. Even though people like the Difi Maxi say, oh, there’s centralization. I don’t trust anybody. [00:15:00] But the attack surface actually becomes a lot more complicated when you think about adding in CFI or adding in centralization points and counterparties, which makes total loss become nearly impossible.

Whereas like early days we’ve, we’ve been around long enough to see like a lot of the hacks, and now it’s becoming less and less common because of the structuring that just got more sophisticated.

Speaker: Yeah. No, I think that’s a great point. And it is one of those things where too, it seems like there’s like better accountability too.

Like the more of this that we can, even if it’s like you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re bringing the, the off chain world into the on chain world. It’s like kind of hitting while some folks might find issue, like it’s also kind of hitting at some of the original ethos of like. Like why this technology’s important for reasons of transparency and, and just kind of getting more of the books publicly out there.

I think you know, I’m really curious, again, given the breadth of your background and, and what you’re doing now, like. Do you talk to any, like traditional finance players about what you’re doing and how do they [00:16:00] typically react to what you’re, you’re doing and, do they understand it?

I mean, ‘cause right now we’re starting to see you know, with all this Clarity Act and stuff, you’re starting to actually see banking associations taking positions and stuff. But that’s not necessarily like a lot of, that’s kind of like public facing, political kind of lobbying art. But like, when you talk to people actually in the space that are in the trenches of the space, like how are they.

Interpreting this if you’re talking to them.

Speaker 2: Yes. Talk to them all the time. I think that asset managers are very aware and they’re already investing in this space, kind of hedging their, their own book. Well, two directions. One is that they are, they’re very aware, they have limited access to international audiences.

Even like institutions or high net worth audience or high international, high net worth or institutional LPs. Because of the way their current products are structured, they have to rely on distribution partner, so that’s why they’re super excited to tokenize their assets, so such that [00:17:00] these buyers can buy direct from them.

On the other hand, they’re also, I, I think, hedging against the potential for blockchain to disrupt existing financial rails. Now, are they as convinced as I am? Most definitely not. their bosses, like their boards are very, very skeptical. I think except for perhaps like Fidelity and Franklin Templeton are, are quite bought in, like their leadership, our leadership teams are quite bought into this vision.

But I think it also comes with the fact that. They were like major beneficiaries of when the, when the investing landscape in the US changed, shifted drastically. Like when people went from not having much to save to suddenly, like the 4 0 1 ks, the the ETF moment. So they’re familiar with that, and now they’re seeing like.

On chain finance potentially or having the promise of being that next wave in terms of funds that we’ve spoken with. A lot of the traditional capital allocators are not convinced. They very much think that crypto is. [00:18:00] Super high risk, low, low risk adjusted returns compared to what they could access.

And frankly, I don’t think they’re wrong. Especially in a bear market like originally, I, I think I came in with very bullish on, defi. But the more I learn about traditional asset managers and the stuff that they have access to, the more I realized, okay, we are still. Quite a bit a ways away.

Like they have access to the double digit returns that some retail just don’t have. But sophisticated, traditional players already have those, those access. So in order to convince them to come on chain, which is like the hardest type of audience, we really need to prove that we can provide something that they don’t have.

And that’s where I think there, there’s definitely potential, but as an industry, we haven’t exactly gotten there yet. And we’re kind of far away.

Speaker: Well, I mean it brings like a kind of a good question, I think up. I mean there’s the returns, right? what do you think is holding things back, within the industry?

Is it kind of focused and [00:19:00] cultural things or, or, or is it other things that, that are kind of getting in the way from your point of view?

Speaker 2: That’s a beefy question. So like this month I’m speed running through a couple of like. Securities professional exams because I just wanted to know what, what are they testing for?

And while going through these exams, I learned that, okay, these regulations actually make a lot of sense, like non-solicitation of non-accredited investors. You need to be super accurate and you have like X business days to report any changes in in board or your API like your calculations need to stand up to the test of.

Accounting, none, none of this exists in Defi. And you look at how, how Defi reports yield, it’s like all over the place. So no wonder traditional, like the existing professionals don’t respect us the way that we, we want them to because we don’t live up to their standards. And those standards came from decades and decades of people frankly, from people messing things up and then losing other people’s [00:20:00] money.

And that’s why regulations exist. So this is like pretty funny for. It’s very humbling for me to go back and just learn the, the absolute basics of things, which a lot of defi builders, I think just took for granted. Or when you read about defi or when you read about builders in the space, when they post, like write, when they write about blog posts, it’s always like, oh, we’re building the new age of finance where like, traditional finance sucks, da, da da.

Actually, it’s not so true. It’s just like it’s slow and high friction. Many times for a reason. And to answer your question, I think if we just have very basic value props nailed down in a way that we can be trustworthy, people would use it. So simple examples. If somebody can create, and we might feel bad if somebody could create a super simple money market fund that.

Tokenized money market fund that’s easy to access. That has like even plenty basis points, higher yield [00:21:00] than people’s checking accounts. And it’s safe. You can communicate safety and trust to users. People might use it. And for us, I know why people don’t use our product. They don’t trust us because we’re like yielding way above market.

It’s liquid, like I think the value props are there, but we’re far from being able to establish the trust that these large scale asset managers have, and that’s what we’re working towards.

Speaker: Yeah. That’s super interesting. I mean, ‘cause yeah, I, I struggle with this a lot too, just around like, being kind of like in the space and, in that bubble all the time.

But then also just like even talking with friends and neighbors who have different perceptions around Yeah. The space too, just because of what hits their radar. Right. And, and it’s, it’s an interesting balance, but then you always hear about kind of like, oh, institutional and, and all this stuff.

And they actually see the value. Flows coming in, which is, is awesome. And, and some of these things, you know, that are, are, are, are, are kind of headlining around, you know, tokenization and, and around ETFs kind of getting more exposure to crypto and, [00:22:00] and vice versa and all this and, and yeah, it’s a super interesting point of view too.

‘cause I think you’re right too. Like a lot of these regulations do exist for a reason and it is good. And I think like, you know, it’s kind of a balance between, okay, how much of this can we sample from in a positive way? Probably a lot of around framing, you know, too of like, okay, like how are you communicating with, with the users?

And I don’t know, I, I’m, I get kind of jaded too with time ‘cause there’s too much of this like, skill issue, attitude I think in this space around like, stuff where it’s like, it’s not a skill issue, man. Like you just gotta sit over so much shoulder trying, they’re trying to stuff out and, and you get a sense of like, kind of difficult sometimes too.

I mean, love to get your take too. This is like genic AI is kind of like. Such a buzzword. It’s almost really blinding how buzzword is right now. And like people are out there making like kind of grandiose statements about agents making payments and you see like X 4 0 2 and you see Stripe kind of getting into this with tempo and all of this you know, one like.

What’s your take on how stable [00:23:00] coins, or, or, or what you all are doing at Parenni can be part of this like genic AI space and too, like how do you see from your point of view, like agents using payments and stable coins, if you had to put a, a use case on it?

Speaker 2: I think micro payments, low risk payments are the first to, to get adoption.

I really don’t see. Agents managing people’s portfolios the way some like agent tech trading apps are, are marketing. We’re we have seen. Professional trading firms use machine learning for, for many years now. But the full, like, oh, I’m gonna spin up an open claw bot and then this guy’s gonna make me money.

I’m really skeptical about that part. In terms of payments, I think it’s. It’s quite viable. It’s quite possible in the next, perhaps two to three years. I, I don’t think we’re there yet, or maybe I’m just like [00:24:00] unaware of what could be done. But given all the examples of people sending payments, there’s not really a real need of agents paying each other.

Constantly. Yes. Maybe paying for credits of things they wanna access, like SaaS tools. That’s the part where I think it, it could make a lot of sense. So one of the thesis I have is that SaaS business models need to really change in the next couple of years. Like it’s not no longer per seat tied to an email.

It’s like either get some access credits the way ai nowadays LLMs work. And then similarly, if you wanna access to like, I don’t know, storage, rendering, whatever else thing you need for, for SaaS, the AI could pay for it to complete a specific task where Perna could come in. Well, one thing we’re discussing right now internally is can we make our product more agent friendly?

Not to say we’re gonna build like an agent for us at all, but if, if AI wants to access pera, [00:25:00] is there like a way they could access it instead of having to go through the human ui? Another thing is as, as these AI start becoming wealthier, as the agents start building up their, their balances. Something like parental would be very front and center for when they are parking their assets idle.

Like you’re not gonna be paying people. Thousands of times a day. So you must have times where your assets are sitting there and per down to per block, we could be generating yield for these, these agents or, or these, these wallets. Whereas traditional finance, like you have to put your money there at least a couple days or I don’t even think you can have like, like maybe like overnight lending, but there’s not that much that you can do for intraday yield.

Speaker: Interesting too. Kind of kind. Could you mentioned this kind of skepticism. I am only gonna ask you this because I was at NeoCon, what, like your week before last, and some dude was on stage saying like, [00:26:00] I’m gonna have open call, manage my whole portfolio, I’m gonna give it access to everything. And it made me kind of cringe.

But, but you mentioned skepticism too. I’m wondering if we could unpack that a little bit because I, I feel like it, it’s something that the audience might like like to hear about a little bit more because. You know, in some context it sounds like these agents are like superheroes that like can just do things in an amazing way.

But like, I would love to kind of get a understanding of like where you’re skeptical around that piece of it, around the kind of portfolio management.

Speaker 2: I think the people who are able to generate sustainable profits or manage their portfolio smartly. They already have a portfolio or trading PM or trading background, and they are very systematic in approaching how to work with an agent.

Mm-hmm. So that’s, mm-hmm. it applies to all things ai, where now I’m, our team and, and myself, we’re adopting like ai, really integrating it into our lives. some humans don’t think like. [00:27:00] Machines, and that’s the beauty of humans. We we’re, we’re creative, we’re spontaneous, and machines don’t like that at all.

When you want an agent to do something, you have to be super clear with the loops. You’re like, okay, I like, for example, portfolio management. Okay, I have a hundred dollars. 10 of these only go into lending. Those are the like 10 lending protocols. A smarter agent, you can potentially prompt it to say, okay, out of the 10, here are the five criteria for how to evaluate new lending protocols.

If you pass these five, you can start allocating, but if you don’t give it anything and you just say. Make me money and that you can, will not do the smart thing. It’ll get like Trump injected or, or do something weird and, and most likely hallucinate and, and lose your money. So again, if you’re already skilled at something, it can 10 x your productivity, which is what we are seeing in engineering and design across the board.

If you’re not skilled at it, you, you cannot trust the AI to do everything for you.

Speaker: Yeah. That’s, that’s a great, great breakdown because I think, yeah, that’s stuff [00:28:00] that people don’t necessarily realize, like, and, and I think it’s a really good point you make about humans and the spontaneity and kind of the creativity and all of that too.

‘cause it’s just like, if you’ve got the skillset, you’ve got the skillset and it’s something you’ve kind of built for, you know, yeah. Your whole life, right? and things can help it. But no, that’s good. That’s great. I mean, everything’s kind of in this race to innovate, you know?

Is, is there a conversation you think we’re not having enough of in general, like in, in the space?

Speaker 2: Mm, I think I, I maybe more, more just focused on my space specifically of like building financial products, building financial services for using blockchain. Much of the hype and focus is still around payments.

Mm-hmm. And I think that’s, it is not over-hyped. It’s just like the, the other sides of financial services are undervalued and there’s so much Niche, giant markets that people are not building in. Going back to the, the very first question of why I started building this space is like the general talent pool and population of builders is [00:29:00] just too small.

Like, I can’t think of anybody building stable coin based annuity. I can’t really think of anyone doing like, like post m and a clearing using stable coins. They’re just like, these are huge volumes and, and huge trillions of, and like maybe there’s like one company in the space. So, I made a list once, like 10, 12 things where I’m just not seeing people build in, whereas like a ton of people are trying to build.

I know there’s like thousands of AI SaaS startups probably so that, yeah, it’s not that we’re not having the conversation, we’re not having the conversation the same level of same level of like size and, and reach that some of the other immersion technologies are.

Speaker: Sounds like opportunity too, right?

Yeah. Like, and, and maybe some of it’s like people are not necessarily as aware of like, some of these opportunities. Like, and, and, and, and you know, okay, maybe I don’t need to go build like the hundredth oh two. I can go like [00:30:00] build something and unlock, you know, all its volume or whatever. I think it’s like really interesting perspective.

You know, do you have like one bold prediction for the future of tech that you’d be willing to bet on today?

Speaker 2: It’s not like crazy bold, but I actually think people are, a lot of people are naturally really lazy. So when we think like people like us in tech, we think AI’s going to take over the world.

every company’s going to become like highly agent, et cetera. I, I don’t think that’s the case. I think the opportunity lies in. Understanding that a lot of people prefer to interact with humans and there’s that trust element that agents cannot replace. And therefore a lot of companies and a lot of human creation will still stem from very much non-AI sources.

And that’s like exact, is very much at odds with where like the Sam Altman’s of the world [00:31:00] want us to go and that evolution’s going to take decades, not years. So same with like, people thought, I don’t really know what people, people, people thought like, I don’t know, SAS SaaS is eating, software is eating the world.

I think that was like,

Speaker: yeah,

Speaker 2: Yeah. It was like a 16 C Think about like how, yeah, it’s, it’s not gonna happen at at as fast of a pace as we would like it to be, and therefore I’m like cautiously optimistic of. What I’m building or what what we’re building is going to have an impact so soon, like I’m in this for a career if, if I stay in this, it’s like multiple decades of trying to get people to come on chain or going to like this next open iteration of finance.

It’s not gonna happen like two, three years from now.

Speaker: Oh, I think that’s awesome. Like I think we need more long-term thinkers on this stuff ‘cause it takes a while. Like you, you said, I mean like, even with what we’re doing, it’s just like, you know, getting people, getting people to switch a browser or to a search engine or like, [00:32:00] doing these things like you, you really gotta, they really gotta feel motivated, you know?

And, and it takes time and and then, you know, at a certain. Point, just word gets around, like you were saying earlier, like with the trust factor, right? Like where, you know, once people can enough people start to use it and and, and see the benefit and, and, you know, get, feel the reality of it.

Like that, that, that has a way of kind of like, proliferating too. So I, I think, Anna, is there anything we didn’t talk about that you wanted, you, you might want people to know about, about what you’re doing? Or, or or anything in general?

Speaker 2: I think I would actually, this is more of an ask from the audience. If there’s an asset or if there’s a product you would like to see that would make you feel comfortable keeping your money on train. Please reach out and I would love to chat with you.

Speaker: Awesome. And, and like for people to reach out or, or just follow along with what you yeah.

Or parent are doing. Like where can they where can they do that?

Speaker 2: Oh, yes. Great question. You can reach out on LinkedIn directly to our company site or to my, my LinkedIn. You can find us on x. You can [00:33:00] find us on our website, pera.org. We have a discord if you choose a deposit over a hundred K. We have a one-on-one direct human support in our VIP program called PERA Purple.

So that’s like also adding trust in the human element. Again, to go back to my point, I, I don’t think a, a large depositor wants to talk to ai. They wanna talk to a human, so that’s what we were giving them.

Speaker: Awesome. Yeah, Phil, thank you Anna. I, I think it is been a great conversation. I, I’m really fan of what you all are building over there and excited to see where it goes.

And yeah, I’d love to have you come back and, and revisit and get some progress on how things are going.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you so much, Luke, and great to be here.

Speaker: Awesome, thanks. Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist Podcast. To never miss an episode, make sure you hit follow in your podcast app. If you haven’t already made the switch to the Brave Browser, you can download it for free today@brave.com and start using Brave Search, which enables you to search the web privately.

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