[00:00:00] Donny Dvorin: The world is waking up to the power of crypto. And we are seeing this with new NFT and token launches every day, all using blockchain technologies. We’re also seeing huge marketing spends by crypto exchanges and platforms. And so this season we are speaking to the marketing leaders of those crypto companies hosted.

[00:00:19] I brave software in me, Dani

[00:00:25] You’re listening to a new episode of the brave marketer podcast. And we have an exciting one for you because we’re talking to dial-in do ne and he is the co-founder and lead initiator@twodifferentcompaniesandft3.com and also Kylin network.

[00:00:40] And I met dial-in. We want to say three years ago at an IB event, he was up on a panel, really impressed with him. He’s been a big crypto supporter and enthusiast going all the way back to 2011. So a lot of experience in the space, and he’s really been consistently at the forefront, you know, between society and [00:01:00] technology and as a peer alongside such luminaries as Edward Snowden, Gavin wood.

[00:01:04] And we’re going to talk about that in their interview today. And specifically some of his takeaways, And his most recent interests and pursuits are in the field of decentralized data monetization.

[00:01:14] And that’s really going to be the focus of today’s podcast is DDI as we call it.that’s more for the decentralized identity part of it. Again, in this episode, we’ll talk about ethics, security considerations for sharing your data in a web three world. We talked about how do you do it from a B2C perspective?

[00:01:30] How do you do it from a B2B perspective? And we really talked a lot about like the genome, you know, someone can make like five to $50,000 off of a genome and how do you prevent fraud and everything from happening from there. So I think you’re really going to like this episode. before we get into the episode, of course we have our brave pick of the week today.

[00:01:49] We are going to highlight. Coca-Cola so we’re so excited to highlight Coca-Cola because they ran a sponsored image in Latin America for their, this nice to play campaign. [00:02:00] And a Latin America is really growing area for our brief ads business there, you know, one of the top markets for us and so great to see a mainstream brand such as Coca-Cola, you know, taking notice of the audience we reached there running on brave, especially in, LATAM and with no further ado here is today’s episode of the breve market.

[00:02:19] Dial-in welcome to the brave marketer podcast. How you doing today?

[00:02:36] Dylan: I’m really good. Thank you. And it’s total pleasure to be here. Great.

[00:02:40] Donny Dvorin: So why don’t we just start with your backgrounds for a moment? Tell us a little bit about NF T3 a little bit about Kylin. We won’t spend too much time there, but I think it’d be nice if you just talked about both those companies and then we can really get into the way we’re decentralizing.

[00:02:57] Dylan: Yeah, thank you. So NF, T3 [00:03:00] and Highland sort of work synergetically and respectively within this sort of overall theme of how do we think about the transition from web to web. And how do we bring to life? Some, a lot of the imagination encapsulated in this idea of going from sort of more of a platform basis to a P2P orientation, where we’re moving from the internet being like kind of just, you know, information to now, you know, assets, right.

[00:03:28] And not just crypto assets or financial assets, but in fact, the equity that individuals have, the data that we create share monetize operationalized, blah, blah, blah. How does that. In web three. And so for Kyland, we’re thinking about how data is custody, how data is validated, how we call interesting information.

[00:03:49] Off-chain bring it on. Similar to, you know, and this is the Oracle functionality with NF T3. We’re very, very focused on how does identity play a role [00:04:00] and in particular decentralized identity as the nexus for sort of a unified experience, common reference of the individual existing as a sort of data, you know, having their own data, equity, their own life, that they live in a web three context and how they can derive some value or benefit from it.

[00:04:17] Donny Dvorin: Uh, both of these companies, B to B or there’s a direct B to C where consumers can interact with your actual software.

[00:04:25] Dylan: In both companies, they can be B2B or B2C. Now end of T3 is more B2C oriented because it is very much looking to productize the technology that has recently become a standard. And that technology has decentralized identifier.

[00:04:44] And the last time that the worldwide web consortium had approved a standard was HTTPS. And this is in fact, the latest standard that they’ve approved. And it’s becoming a de rigueur standard for decentralized identity, I guess, [00:05:00] or identity within what three. And there’s many projects working with DIDs, but.

[00:05:04] You know, we’re, we’re working with a particularly good iteration of this, and we really want to get people using decentralized identifiers so that when web three really comes into reality, they’re standing on the doorstep of being able to, uh, have a common reference to all of the experiences that they map in metatarsal contexts, gamified contexts, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:05:26] So there’s very much a BTC orientation to that. Walk

[00:05:29] Donny Dvorin: me through an example of how a user would do that.

[00:05:33] Dylan: Yeah, absolutely. So I think a really, really cool example of the possibilities of what we’re calling D data or D data journey may look like in terms of use casing. And I’ve talked about it quite a bit in other contexts, but it’s this idea of, for example, genomics, right?

[00:05:53] So, so tokenizing your genome. What would that actually look like? So you would, for example, upload your [00:06:00] genes. To a secure enclave every time a researcher dips into your genome, because it’s attached to a decentralized or unique identifier, you could get basically paid directly from that. Now you may say, well, this sounds like science fiction.

[00:06:13] This sounds a little bit like crazy. And why would I want to put my genome up on the web and why would I want to undergo any friction with that? And is that true? Is our research effectively paying a lot of money that people would do. And the answer is, is yes, it’s a, it’s a business model that in fact exists right now, just with, but it’s centralized.

[00:06:33] So companies like 23 and me ancestry, they’re charging you a couple of hundred bucks to swab yourself and get, you know, some insights about which is valuable by the way. I won’t discount that to get some insights maybe about your history or genetic history or whatnot, but on the backend, it’s actually a huge part of the revenue generation model of these companies is they.

[00:06:54] This genomic information to researchers and they’re making enormous deals on it, [00:07:00] like tens of millions. And in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars are being, deals are being made to pharmaceutical companies. So it’s a business model that exists, but it is just existed with centralized. Wait, you can envision the possibility.

[00:07:12] If people were to securely upload their genome and some sort of like self custody way, the researchers in a trusted execution environment, whatever that may be, we’re able to compute upon that information and access it for feet. That person could be directly monetized just by sharing their genomic information.

[00:07:32] This is about one use case of, you know, sharing your data or D data in web three. How Kylin kind of like fits into that is we’re working on the context for data marketplaces. So how is data bought and sold when it comes to that? So Kylinn would presumably, you know, three years from now have a well-functioning D data marketplace and researchers should be able to access that data marketplace in order to buy this information.

[00:07:59] Or there would be [00:08:00] brokers of that information to say, Hey, we are able to. You know, sell this on mass in a D data marketplace, or there are data trusts and that identity side is you would need to have some way to attach a unique identifier to that genomic information on the application side. So let’s say that like you did, we’re still using this genomic example.

[00:08:21] You have a, whatever the company is, it could be centralized. It could not, doesn’t really matter, but hopefully it’s, it’s decentralized and you say, Upon signup. I’m going to give you my dead, right? My decentralized identifier, my end of T3 account. And I’m attaching that on signup. I’m going to sign it to prove that I own, that did.

[00:08:40] And in fact, as part of this process, I uploaded my genome. It’s attached now what that did, right? So that we can, through that person’s entire journey of if it’s just a genomic case, we can, we can understand that it’s always coming back to the wall. Say if we want to give them that personal capitalization, like they, they pay, you know, the [00:09:00] researchers pay for the access and then that goes directly to the person.

[00:09:03] This is like a really, really cool example. And one that has, I guess, equanimity about it, doesn’t matter if you’re. In Botswana or in, Netherlands, your genomic information has some, some value. And in fact, some people’s genomic information, regardless of geography has value over other people’s just depending on their particular genome, but there’s a lot of other really cool use cases and examples of how identity can be leveraged within the context of people starting to, and, and their own data.

[00:09:36] Within the context of people, really self custodying, their data of us. Turning the whole basic business model of the internet, just advertising, which is brave, is doing a bang up job of pushing this narrative. Right. And is turning it on his head and saying, listen, you know what, there’s a lot of value getting pulled out of people.

[00:09:57] Right. Right. I mean, there’s, there’s value being created [00:10:00] because we exist on the internet and now there’s value. There’s every reason to believe this value is going to be coming back. To individuals and, you know, one of the central kind of theses of Kyland to some extent, more so NMT three is that, you know, and in a couple of years, hopefully when those first stories start coming out of people, getting these really interesting, personal capitalizations as a result of being responsible custodians of.

[00:10:30] Data journeys or their equity or their life on a decentralized internet. I think that change will happen really, really quickly and rapidly where people say, I don’t want to get on Crow. I don’t want to get on Facebook. I want to be smart, really intelligent about how I live my life on the internet, because I’m going to get paid as a result.

[00:10:51] Right. How

[00:10:51] Donny Dvorin: much do you think, like in a perfect world in three years, somebody making off of their.

[00:10:57] Dylan: It’s hard to say. And I think it’s very, and it’s [00:11:00] quite variable depending on the extent to which we have maturity in the technologies that underlie this.

[00:11:06] But if I had to like throw some, just some numbers out there, I mean, right now there’s a figure that out. Uh, working with that, you know, the total lifetime value of someone’s genome can be anywhere between five and $50,000.

[00:11:22] Donny Dvorin: So that’s, that’s significant. Right? Well, what do you think? I mean, everyone’s going to upload their genome, but what do you think the top areas of data that they’re going to give and get compensated for?

[00:11:31] I mean, things like, you know, a male, female age, how many kids, things like that, or, you know, what.

[00:11:38] Dylan: I’m thinking there’s huge efficiencies to be gained in the context of verifiable credentials, the attestations that can be attached to a unique identifier. And that might sound like gobbledygook, but basically it just means I’m going to attest that.

[00:11:55] Based on my, it can be a centralized thing or de-centralizing you me subway sandwiches saying like, I’m [00:12:00] going to test the UAA to thousand sandwiches and I’ll give that out to station. It’s going to go on your decentralized identity and in some way, shape or form, you would be able to leverage that. Right.

[00:12:09] You’d be able to leverage that information to gain you some sort of benefit or value. It may not always be strictly like, easy to say, like. A hundred dollars as a result of this, but maybe it’s you get a benefit as to, or some kind or some sort of like reward as a result of taking part in this platform.

[00:12:28] That’s trying to get insight into you. You know? So like I think that the biggest thing about decentralized identity and about Deedat is that the need for service providers to know about. People that they provide a service to does not go away. Right? When we go from web two to web three, in fact, it may even intensify and we will need to have insight to what people are doing and what we’re doing.

[00:12:55] We will want other entities to have insight into what we’re doing, even if we’re, [00:13:00] even if this whole model is changing, right where we’re custodying data, where we’re sort of arbiters of our own data in control of that process. And it’s not being polished up by another. Third party and then sold to other people on our behalf and we just get some free software, right?

[00:13:15] Like that’s going to be like a really important component of all of this. And I think that it’s exciting to consider that we’ll be able to have kind of these new efficiencies that will be created as a result. Right. Like I think in the metatarsal context, you know, it’s really interesting because it’s like, well, if we have a decentralized identity layer, then all of a sudden.

[00:13:38] We have a way to have a common reference to entities and to people. And so you asked earlier about B2C. This doesn’t just mean that individuals, maybe there’s really cool ways for enterprises to leverage the idle data that they have. And really there’s a huge area of consideration here in terms of machine learning, like, [00:14:00] like machine learning, the algorithm, the algorithm.

[00:14:03] It’s not like a big problem. It’s the bigger problem is the raw data and the sources of data.

[00:14:08] Donny Dvorin: So, I mean, yeah. So for a company, for a, from a B2B perspective, I mean, you’d have to get permission from the user to sell that data, but then that kind of goes against the whole thing where the user owns their data.

[00:14:22] I mean, it’s basically white labeling your technology for them to use with their own.

[00:14:26] Dylan: Yeah. So I’m thinking about when it comes to like a B2C kind of context, I’m thinking about data that a business has that they want to share and monetize in a way that would not, I guess, hurt their strategic position.

[00:14:42] So I’m thinking, you know, maybe Ford has a bunch of data about their cars that could be used. To somebody, right? Or to other enterprises or businesses, maybe it’s financial, maybe they’re forecasting sales or something like that, or whatnot, [00:15:00] that data sits idle or that data is like, you know, secretly shared in some, in some cases.

[00:15:05] But I envisioned the possibility of being able to sort of. The possibility of businesses to be able to monetize idle data sets that they may already possess. So that might be really cool, right? Like maybe Ford or whatever. It doesn’t even matter. I mean, the example, but maybe you, cause there’s a huge opportunity with ML here where it’s sort of.

[00:15:28] There’s a bottleneck and raw data being available to machine learning algorithms. And the reason why is because nobody necessarily wants to share their proprietary data. If you could share it in a, in a secure way where the compute on it happens in a secure way. Maybe you do that or, you know, every time it’s access or you can restrict access, or you can say you can access it for this amount of time.

[00:15:52] And there are great projects that they’re working through some of these ideas in addition to us like, oh, wasted slabs. Yeah.

[00:15:58] Donny Dvorin: All right. Why don’t we switch gears for a [00:16:00] second and talk to you about your brief marketing moment, which is kind of the whole premise of this podcast. What’s your brave marketing moment?

[00:16:06] Dylan: Dial-in it? Actually, it happened recently, so we had. The Kyla and Twitter, somebody had written. So I don’t know if you’re aware of, do you know the meme when Lambo? Yeah. So I don’t know what that, what’s that mean mean to you? For me, it’s sort of like, when does, when does this token

[00:16:25] Donny Dvorin: explode? Yeah. Like what, like, it’s kind of like, when are we going to moon?

[00:16:29] You know, like, when’s this going to get on fire? When w when, when am I going to be able to buy a Lamborghini with this.

[00:16:34] Dylan: Yeah, exactly. So we had just announced that we had a 50 minute, like we had just, we started the staking and we had 50 million Kyl, which is a native token for Kyla and staked. And somebody had written under the thing, like when Ford focus, like kind of sorta sardonically and I, you know, I was looking and I read it.

[00:16:54] I’m like, let me think. And so I just, I was like, I was like, you know, If we get our [00:17:00] community to write a thousand comments under this, we will buy, uh, one of those community members, a Ford focus, and we’ll have them post a picture under here, out of spite to your comment. And, you know, I said, let’s do it.

[00:17:15] And so we literally did it. I think it just got run by crypto slate today. And it just got a thousand comments also today. So we’re, we’re giving away a Ford focus. So the brave moment was sorta. Sometimes, I think you need to be impulsive, believe it or not in marketing and capture the zeitgeists of, you know, the moment or your community, make it

[00:17:36] Donny Dvorin: fun.

[00:17:37] Yeah. Yeah. And, and what do you think, you know, it’s a good segue into like what makes a bold marketer? I mean, that’s one of the things, right. Is choosing something where you, there’s a moment in time, you capitalize on it, it could blow up in your face, but you know, you try to do your best. So what else makes a bold.

[00:17:57] Dylan: I think it’s [00:18:00] necessary to take a position, right? Like you have to just, you have to really take a position, not be afraid to have a conviction about whatever it is that you’re working on. I think human beings respond to other human beings. And so you have to under, I think you have to like, really, like, I guess, underscore whatever you’re doing with human emotion, right?

[00:18:21] Like, you know, sometimes it’s levity. Right. But. Did this one Ford focus thing, but I really think that support and I don’t know about you, but I, I, I think that you really have to appeal to human emotion.

[00:18:34] Donny Dvorin: Yeah. I mean, that’s what marketing is really all about. Like you want to bring out, you know, whatever it is, make somebody cry, you know, sadness make them laugh, make them feel joy, whatever it is because when people have an emotion related to an ad or whatever it is, they remember it so much more versus just coming to kind of going over their head.

[00:18:54] And that goes for anything. I mean, Teachers who talk about that. Like they chat, they teach with emotion. [00:19:00] So the kids remember the concepts. So in your bio, you mentioned you’ve appeared with Edward Snowden and Gavin word. Can you tell us about those events and maybe like the biggest takeaways from them?

[00:19:11] Dylan: Yeah, well, you know, like if I ran into Tom cruise on the street and maybe that’s dating me cause he’s like, maybe not, but enough, right. But like running, you know, being a, uh, and I’ve met Gavin a few times now, but being in his presence or, and certainly in Edwards, you know, like I’m very struck by that. So that experience was just huge for me because.

[00:19:40] People like that are very much, you know, my heroes, certainly. Where did you meet them? So I met Gavin at a poke it up party. The first time I met him, that’s Polk it up already in New York and Edward, sorry with was our, our interview. Uh, so virtually, so I didn’t meet him in person and. [00:20:00] So we had put on a conference called lockdown D data, and the idea was to start basically an inaugural conference around just ideas around how to, you know, what does data look like in general data plus blockchain, you know, and into the, into the next few years.

[00:20:16] And there are a bunch of projects as a part of that. There’s a little bit of a story to it, but we, I saw this talk by Dan Rieser from Cola and he talked about. In Miami BTC, Miami, I think of this. And he was like talking about how Gavin in one of his first talks or sorry, one of his first posts about polka that talked about a post-Snowden web.

[00:20:36] And so instantly, you know, we’re trying to get Gavin and, you know, some limit. And we had already had Edward Snowden secured for this conference. And I was like, Post-Snowden web, like these guys sort of cross-pollinated each other in this way. And I was like, we need to get them together. We need to get them talking.

[00:20:52] And so, yeah, I hustled it and we tried to get in touch with God’s people put it together in a few days. Like five [00:21:00] days later it was a conference and we did it and I was stunned, you know? And I think I did a good job of not looking like I was stunned during the interview, but yeah, I started moderated them talking.

[00:21:08] It was, it was really wonderful.

[00:21:10] Donny Dvorin: Awesome. That’s awesome. What were some of the takeaways? Like what was like the aha moment?

[00:21:14] Dylan: One of my aha moments was, was Gavin saying that the technologies that we work on and he was specifically talking about pulling it up, but it was Gavin saying that, you know, but in general, I think it can be extrapolated.

[00:21:28] The technologies that we work on in blockchain are not a matter of interpretation. They’re actually a matter of natural law. And I think that that was extremely profound because. I mean, it’s not untrue that the, whatever we do in blockchain ultimately boils down to consensus mechanisms, which are math, which is the universe, which is, you know, and so it very much is natural.

[00:21:54] I was just like, wow, that is profound from Edward. I took [00:22:00] away a key moment that I took away from him was that he had this really interesting counter narrative to. Metaverse that I thought that that really made me pause and consider. He said, you know, listen, if you’re sitting in your basement and you know, you’re playing a video game and then somebody asks, you know, says you need to buy like this, you know, NFT to be able to play the video game.

[00:22:22] I mean, doesn’t that take away from, you know, like, you know, it doesn’t that sort of isn’t that a little bit like fleecing or rapacious or isn’t this actually like not a good thing. And, and they, the two of them had a little bit of. Uh, central debate around that. And you can check it out if you’re curious, but that, you know, I did, he took this really interesting counter narrative that I hadn’t thought of.

[00:22:43] I disagree with it, but ultimately, but I thought it was interesting to

[00:22:47] Donny Dvorin: consider. Yeah, it’s hard to force somebody to buy an NFT in the middle of the game, you know? I mean, it’s, it’s usually volunteer. You want to get to the next level, you buy the skin or whatever we can interview my son about that.

[00:22:58] Dylan: Yeah, absolutely should.

[00:22:59] I mean, [00:23:00] I think, and if T’s will serve ultimately utility purpose as their most important purpose, um, rather than, you know, sort of like the sort of, I don’t know, a collectible purpose, why

[00:23:13] Donny Dvorin: don’t we round it out with, you know, w what’s the most pressing challenge that you see marketers facing today?

[00:23:20] Dylan: I think in general, marketers are facing a big challenge of knowing where to go.

[00:23:27] Knowing, like how do I appeal to the people that I want to talk to? Right. And where do I find them and how do I find them? And once I’ve got them, how do I keep them? How do I deal with the fickleness of a community that I’m inculcating? Right. Um, I think that’s really a particular challenge in the cryptos fear and marketing, because sometimes our communities can be very speculatively oriented and they have no.

[00:23:55] Necessarily long-term allegiance to your brand, but only in so [00:24:00] far as you know, you’re attached to your token value of your native token. So there are particular challenges to marketing within crypto. I don’t know. I mean, I’m curious, cause I, I think you have way more experience than I do. How you conceive of some of the challenges that you’ve experienced.

[00:24:17] I think some

[00:24:18] Donny Dvorin: of the biggest challenges is that like, when I think about brave specifically, is that marketers, the. Be focused on privacy. They want to do web three. They want to be doing decentralized, but they also want to track consumers. They want to know if a purchase was happened, who the impression was served to.

[00:24:36] Did they make the purchase? And they’re a real, like dichotomy against each other. Just they’re like, you know, the exact opposites, like not tracking versus tracking. And I think that marketers are really challenged by that right now because they say, yeah, we’re all about privacy. When you get into the weeds, they’re all about.

[00:24:55] Dylan: Yeah. And I remember a few years ago when we first met, this was like, basically this sort of [00:25:00] central kind of like tension that we kind of talked about. Right. And, and I really like, I’m super optimistic and hopeful that some of the technical infrastructure that’s getting developed right now, it’s going to really help us, I guess, like overcome that tension because to the extent that people are gonna to.

[00:25:18] Yeah. I hope really self custodying that to some extent, like I think that that tension won’t necessarily exist as much as it does now. And part of that tension is also because we don’t necessarily know who’s real, right. There’s a lot of

[00:25:32] Donny Dvorin: things. And that brought a lot of bots going on and the answer and that’s for sure, precisely, especially when there’s compensation, right?

[00:25:38] Even like if you were selling someone’s genome for five to $550,000, someone’s going to think of a way to create a fake genome to get that much.

[00:25:48] Dylan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And this is, this is a basic computer science health problem, right. That, you know, anything, a human, a bot or a human can do a buck do. And I actually hope [00:26:00] that through the development of decentralized identities in web three, we actually will start.

[00:26:05] Get to a point where we can overcome that basic computer science problem and how we would do that is, you know, you can think about your did is like a backpack. And if you’re doing all these verifiable credential at, to stations that go into that backpack over time, it becomes almost impossible for a bot to have all of the accrued reputation history at, to stations that is contained within that did.

[00:26:29] Right. So I think it, it holds a ton of promise to make some of these. Dynamics more efficient, right?

[00:26:36] Donny Dvorin: Yep. Good. Any last words for the listeners and how can they get into.

[00:26:40] Dylan: I always feel that’s ominous when people say last words, because I feel like I’m about to die or get

[00:26:47] but final words, I just hope everybody has a great weekend. And I hope everybody is like safe and there’s, you know, Ukraine stuff is going on and think about that. And if whatever, be kind [00:27:00] to each other, I know that sounds generic and I’m really excited. What three identity, all of that. And, uh, they can get in touch with me through, I guess, my Twitter, if they really want to, which is just my first and last name at dial-in Dewdney or they can jump on our telegrams for, uh, an MP3 or Kylin and yeah, that’s, that’s all I’ve got to say for my final words.

[00:27:23] Dylan: Thanks so much.

[00:27:24] Donny Dvorin: Thanks again for listening to the brave marketer podcast, to stay up to date on all things brave, sign up to the brief ads inside a newsletter@brave.com forward slash add news.

[00:27:36] You’ll get tips for advertising on the cookie lists, world exclusive content industry. Best practices for consumer privacy and more. If you’d like to get started on your brave ads campaign or speak to someone from the team email ad sales@brave.com. That’s 80 sales air, brave.com. And finally musical credit goes to my older brother.

[00:27:56] Ari divorce provides inspiration every [00:28:00] single day until next time.