[00:00:00] Donny Dvorin: Modern marketing changes fast and great marketers needed edge marketers from challenger brands need to be especially brave. This season. All our guests are from challenger brands. Join us as they unveil the strategies and tactics behind the risks that they’ve taken. They’ll talk about the biggest coldest marketing campaigns that got their brand noticed and made an impact in the industry.

[00:00:29] Hosted. Brave software and me Donny Dearborn, head of sales at join me to get fresh new perspectives and the inspiration to say yes to brave marketing moments.

[00:00:43] You’re listening to a new episode of the brave marketer podcast. And I think you’re really gonna like this one because our most popular episodes so far were all about crypto. One about taxes, and one about NFTs with. And this week we’re going to talk to Shiran [00:01:00] Herzberg and he’s the head of media at each horo.

[00:01:03] He’s worked there for the last 10 years and he’s leading the media buying and performance team along with helping iTeros brand marketing. And then secondly, I like how we’re talking to another challenger brand. And when I think about the challenge of brands, I think about there’s two sets of challenger brands for each portal.

[00:01:20] So first of all, you have each. Charles Schwab fidelity Ameritrade, and each Toro is definitely challenging. Those brands that have been around for maybe some of them close to a hundred years. I don’t know if that long, but, and then the other hand you have Coinbase, Gemini, crypto.com. And each Toro’s also challenging those Browns.

[00:01:41] So there’s really two sets. And in this one, we’re going to talk about how closing media deals in the crypto market comes with a lot of risk.

[00:01:49] It’s not so easy to just run media and then hope that performs. Well, you could end up spending a lot of money and wasted. And some of the biggest opportunities for crypto [00:02:00] companies, and being really smart when you’re doing your marketing. But before we get into today’s episode, we want to highlight our brief.

[00:02:06] Every episode, we choose a brand that has run an ad campaign with brave. And this week we’re choosing Columbia sports and Columbia used brave sponsored image to kick off their fall campaign for outerwear and the lifestyle imagery got the attention of millions of brave users in the U S and they’re just another example of a mainstream branding advertising on the brave ads platform to reach this audience that you really can’t reach anywhere else because their audience doesn’t see programmatic ads or YouTube ads, because we block a lot of the programmatic ads and third-party ad tracks.

[00:02:34] I want to have a very quick reminder to all of our listeners to download the brave browser. If you’re not using it, I’m sure many of you are already using it. And if you’re not using it, it’d be great. If you were to opt into advertising and you can do that in the little triangle, right to the right of the URL bar and opt into app.

[00:02:53] And if you’re not a brave user, it’s really easy to download brave. Go to brave.com six clicks to download, upload [00:03:00] all your book marks set as your default browser, you can do it all under three. And with no further ado, here’s today’s episode of the brave marketer.

[00:03:16] Shiran welcome to the brave marketer podcast. How you

[00:03:19] Shiran Herzberg: doing today? I’m doing great. Thank you for

[00:03:21] Donny Dvorin: having me. Yeah. We’re so excited to have you on, we’ve been working with each other for what seems like a couple of years. I remember our first meeting together and, I was in New York city. And obviously you are in Israel and you were negotiating pretty hard with me on some, some CPA pricing.

[00:03:38] So I’ll never forget it. And since then we’ve met nearly every single week through the pandemic. and we’ve had a great relationship. So I’m so excited to finally on the pod.

[00:03:47] Shiran Herzberg: Happy to be here. Yeah, we started way back, like a few years back and, we just got stronger and stronger together, so yeah.

[00:03:54] why don’t you

[00:03:54] Donny Dvorin: tell our listeners what’s the most exciting thing you’re working on right now?

[00:03:58] Shiran Herzberg: So we Toro, is [00:04:00] offering zero commission stocks in Europe for quite a long time. And we’re about to offer it in the U S. so your current deal operating in the us and offering crypto for investing and trading.

[00:04:10] And we’re going to add the zero commission feature with copy trading in the UK. Which is something pretty big for us. We’re very excited for it.

[00:04:19] Donny Dvorin: Yeah. I love the idea of copy trading. I was almost thinking about creating my own portfolio as an investor, as people could copy me. And in my idea was going to be, have a portfolio of all the advertisers that are advertising with brave.

[00:04:34] And I say that because all of the up and coming. Crypto projects advertise with us. And I always say to myself, oh, if I had just bought their token, when they started advertising with us, I’d be a rich man. So imagine a whole portfolio like

[00:04:48] Shiran Herzberg: that. So actually any Toria can do it. So basically, we have, partners, portfolios, and we can work with partners that, offer edit value.

[00:04:57] And if they come with a smart strategy, we’ll let them [00:05:00] open and operate a portfolio when eToro Yeah, for example, we are partnered with the tie and they have their own system where they, track sentiments and Twitter and they can see,negative and positive comments about Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever.

[00:05:15] And they take decisions based on the, sentiments. And you. invest in them and it will be automatically based on whatever the sentiment is. So if you can build a portfolio that is based in something that has added value, you can actually do it on a Toro.

[00:05:31] Donny Dvorin: That’s great. And so,as you, the people that create the portfolios make money off of the people that are.

[00:05:38] Shiran Herzberg: So there’s smart portfolios, and there’s copy trading under copy trading. You can copy other, People or traders investors, however you want to call them that are trading on tutorials. So we have over 20 million users that are trading on eToro or investing, and there’s the entire social element that is unique to eToro and we invented the copy [00:06:00] trade.

[00:06:00] It’s actually our trademark, back in 2012, we edited to Vitaros. Whoever is trading on tutorial has a portfolio. And if it decides to show it, you can see his stats. You can see the gains, you can see the losses in percentages. You can see, risk scores. You can see whatever he’s investing in, what his portfolio is.

[00:06:21] is it based on stocks? Is it based on crypto and so on? And, you can copy him. You can allocate a certain amount and it will be copied in the same proportion. Of the action he does automatically under account, right? So when you copy these people, there is a program called the popular investor program, which we basically pay.

[00:06:41] We Toro pay these traders that have a certain amount of assets under management. So we have a few quarter stories about people that actually lived there. regular day-to-day business and it’s became a full-time trader on eToro and they’re getting a much higher salary from investing in [00:07:00] that I’m not talking about their gains or profits or losses, and talking about them being copied by amount of, I don’t know, thousands of traders and having a huge assets under management.

[00:07:11] When they caught me when they’re trading, and they get an income for that. So that’s four copy trading copy portfolio. how

[00:07:18] Donny Dvorin: much can a investor that creates one of these copy portfolios, Allen and all these people say a thousand people are copying them. How much are

[00:07:27] Shiran Herzberg: they. So it depends on, the amount of assets he is managing.

[00:07:31] It’s not really him managing the money, Cause he’s trading for himself, but let’s say we have one person copying him was, I don’t know, $40 million. And we have another copy. Trader was 5,000 copiers. with less amount of money, the guy was the $40 million would probably generate. more money, but not anyone can be in this program.

[00:07:50] We have restrictions and we check the people that are coming into the program because, at the end of the day, we want our [00:08:00] traders to, generate profits in the longterm. And we don’t want, to promote everyone, to copy everyone it’s to everyone to copy. Better traders. So they can evaluate and generate more from the use of tutorial.

[00:08:15] Donny Dvorin: Cool. thank you for that explanation. I still don’t have a good idea of how much,someone’s making when people copy them, but that’s okay.

[00:08:21] Shiran Herzberg: So there’s two programs, right? One for the U S and one for global. let’s see you Toro popular investor program. Now it’s set. It’s divided. Units, There’s the elite popular investor and there’s, different levels. So there’s a cadet, there’s a champion. There’s an elite. the elite pro no, in a lit pro the Vester, would have a minimum, average monthly AUM of $10 million. And he would make two or 2.5%. So let’s say he’s being copied with above $10 million.

[00:08:51] It could be like $50 million and he will get a 2.5% from it.

[00:08:55] Donny Dvorin: Really? Where does the 2.5% come from?

[00:08:59] Shiran Herzberg: Toro? We [00:09:00] pay for it. Two

[00:09:01] Donny Dvorin: points, 5%, times 10.

[00:09:06] $250,000

[00:09:08] Shiran Herzberg: a year. I’m telling you that if you Google, some of the investors, you can read really cool articles about them. Like the guy that flipped burgers in this,Food truck that he owned. And he traded in the same time when he Toro and basically became one of the biggest traders.

[00:09:26] and he Toro and he closed his truck or, J nemesis, which is one of our, biggest popular investors. His name is not Jane nemesis. This is his username. So it’s J Edward Smith. he’s with CTR for a very long time. And, Yeah, I think his full-time job is investing in tutorial. So she ran.

[00:09:42] Donny Dvorin: Why don’t we switch over to the marketing side now that we ended to have a good understanding of each Toro and the fact that people can copy trades and that you’re launching zero fee commission in the U S so this podcast is all about brief marketing moments.

[00:09:56] Can you tell our users about a brave marketing moment [00:10:00] for yourself, either at a tour or in your

[00:10:01] Shiran Herzberg: career? a good question. I would say everything that’s my team and me are doing is brave. So when we promote any tutorial in our marketing strategy is basically, oriented to bring active users.

[00:10:16] When we close media is, we pay CPCs, we pay CPMs, we take the risk on us. We don’t know what the outcome would be. and we are dealing with very big budgets, right? So whenever. Close the deal. It’s a brave moment for us. All the risk is on us and we are in charge of making the deal work.

[00:10:36] Donny Dvorin: Can you give our listeners an overview of the crypto marketing landscape and some of the most pressing challenges you are facing.

[00:10:42] I know that marketing crypto can be very different than selling, shoes or washing

[00:10:47] Shiran Herzberg: machines. So Toro is a highly invested in marketing, right? we working in different marketing channels. We, engage with different types of traffic. So with. Talk about Google or Facebook, you need to [00:11:00] have licensed you, you have your own set of rules to how to promote, cryptocurrencies.

[00:11:05] If you work under the affiliation site or. You have other restrictions, right? You need to have different disclaimers. And it depends where you’re promoting it. So we, Toro is not the only promoting crypto. It’s a multi, asset broker. We offer stocks, zero commission stocks. We offer commodities. We offer indices wheel for currencies.

[00:11:23] so different regulators have different approaches and you need to,work by. Regulators approaches and requirements. So when we buy media, our ads have different, disclaimers. The products are a bit different whenever we promote it. yeah. there’s a lot of things to manage. me and my team are working closely with other internal teams in the marketing and external teams.

[00:11:47] We’re working very close with the legal team and the compliance team, to make sure everything we’re doing is highly compliant and,working under the rules in order to promote and not be banned.

[00:11:59] Donny Dvorin: And, back to [00:12:00] this idea of being brave, when you do the marketing in the crypto world, what makes it brave for you?

[00:12:04] the risk that you’re taking

[00:12:06] Shiran Herzberg: so specific in the crypto marketing? I feel that the. Markets is highly correlated with the performance of what we will get. you know, we’re a brokerage, so we’re looking for active users to come and use our, platform for the first time when we did with acquisition.

[00:12:22] so what I’m saying is,depending on the Bitcoin rate, for example, that you’re going to spend a lot of money on a certain months to get advertisements around, a certain publisher you’re going to pay for it. Then it’s a CPM or CPC basis. And, if the market will crash, you will have less intent of the users.

[00:12:39] And then, the results will be, less effective versus a months where the crypto is booming. And the intent of the user is. So there’s a risk of closing media deals in general, in the crypto market specifically. Cause it’s very correlated, with the rates. feel that you saw it as well, working with tutorial, from [00:13:00] the break site, right?

[00:13:01] Donny Dvorin: Yeah, absolutely. There’s some really good months that we’re working together. And then when the market is down, they’re not so good months. And I always say. Well, a lot of the other media is stopping. So why don’t we spend even more money during a downmarket, but it doesn’t always work like that.

[00:13:16] Sometimes people just kind of shut the laptop off when it’s a down market and they only want to trade when it’s exciting. And when it’s going up, even though they should be buying up when the prices.

[00:13:26] Shiran Herzberg: Yeah, not everybody likes to buy the deep, even though, if we look back in time, it’s, you’re sorry for not doing so, I

[00:13:33] Donny Dvorin: guess.

[00:13:33] Yeah. the fear is that nobody ever wants to catch a falling knife. Meaning when it’s going down really fast. And say, oh, it’s down 20%. Let me buy. But you know what if it goes down another 20% or another 30%? So you always trying to time the bottom, but you don’t know when the bottom is

[00:13:48] Shiran Herzberg: I get it.

[00:13:48] But on the other hand, I bought Bitcoin in 2013 and sold it. And what again, insulted, but if I kept it in the entire time or buying more and more. wealthier, I would say. and for back for a [00:14:00] Toro, when I say it’s highly risk and we see better performance when the market is up, the good thing we see Toro is, we, our offering only crypto and it’s not the main business.

[00:14:10] A part of the business. Again, we also for stocks and other assets to trade. So Toro is not correlated with the crypto market, but our crypto activity

[00:14:22] Donny Dvorin: is what percent of your marketing dollars are being spent on crypto versus,

[00:14:27] Shiran Herzberg: The highly depends on the months, we have different channels in the marketing, that you have buttons that you can press and reduce budgets or scale budgets.

[00:14:36] And then you have partnerships that, it’s a year long-term deal that,is not depending on the market. and then percentages are different. So let’s say I have a lot of media deals. am committed to a certain amount of, funds to spend and then Facebook, Google, and so on. They can scale very quick and reduce very quick as well.

[00:14:55] So it really depends on the months in the [00:15:00] markets,

[00:15:00] Donny Dvorin: She ran. What do you think is the biggest opportunity for crypto companies and specifically for crypto marketing

[00:15:05] Shiran Herzberg: right now for crypto companies in general? I feel that the crypto industry we’re just in the beginning. We, we’ll see crypto as a main payment method.

[00:15:16] We would see it as Things that people use to invest in trade. They would see it in the day-to-day as a technology. Right. We already see it adopting and we have a few buzzwords about crypto. Like if I,and if T’s, staking so on, So just the start then it would not end. so basically what I feel, that whoever is in crypto right now is getting their advantage and others that are not there yet.

[00:15:41] so that’s for crypto companies and then for crypto market Ayers. Again, they are building relationship with other crypto outlets with crypto publishers, they’re building, strategies with them, for the long-term. And they will have an advantage because they have their own relations and,they have something that is working already.

[00:15:59] They have [00:16:00] data whenever they promote crypto. So the crypto marketeers that are working right now in crypto. We’ll have, a bigger advantage in five or 10 years when crypto is much more

[00:16:10] Donny Dvorin: mainstream, it feels like when you’re inside of the crypto marketing, that it’s already mainstream, but then you realize it’s not even close.

[00:16:17] What would be the measuring tool for you to say, oh, this is

[00:16:19] Shiran Herzberg: mainstream. It’s a good question. I would ask a 15 year old if he knows about it. And then a six year old, if he knows about it, how well they know about it, that would be your measurement. I guess

[00:16:28] Donny Dvorin: I feel like the brand awareness of crypto in Bitcoin is pretty high.

[00:16:33] It’s just like people aren’t using it. People aren’t spending with it. Not everybody owns it. Not many people own it. So Sharon, outside of crypto for a second, where do you think marketing and advertising is going over the next couple years?

[00:16:45] Shiran Herzberg: Since there’s Internet’s most of the funds for, online marketing at least is going, to online, marketing,

[00:16:52] and online marketing has its own thing. So privacy and security, Iwould be the main concerns for an advertiser these days. [00:17:00] So would say two different levels of tracking or security and privacy of the users. So

[00:17:08] Donny Dvorin: you think that, privacy is a bigger deal.

[00:17:10] How does that change when you’re marketing, is something someone in your

[00:17:14] Shiran Herzberg: so basically, marketeers today can see a lot of data about their users. They can, target users and retarget users of. You know, millions of different things, lookalikes or, interests or subscriptions to emails and so on, whenever you don’t have the data and you start marketing, and pay for display ads or other kind of marketing, you can target, you’re just wasting money.

[00:17:36] and, you’re gonna see less conversions because the user is as intense, for your products. That’s a phase that’s, the marketeers will need to, tackle. there’s a very cool, browser called brave. They have this, thing where they don’t offer,cocaine and the user.

[00:17:53] Much stronger privacy, but I still feel that we are able to promote your tour there in a very efficient way, [00:18:00] because I feel that users and the brave users are basically have the same interests. that’s why it’s easier for me to work with brave, even though I have, let’s say less than. But I know brave is going to the positive place where I would say other, browsers are nuts.

[00:18:20] Donny Dvorin: Got it. And is there specific ways that each is preparing for a future without cookies, besides running with.

[00:18:28] Shiran Herzberg: we have a lot of different ways we promote, it’s not only online, it’s not only through ads and banners that were,there’s social channels, there’s programmatic and mobile, which is, a different channel.

[00:18:40] There is a retention channels and, social that are organic, right? So there’s other ways to promote, a brand without. But, this would be a concern for marketeers in the future.

[00:18:53] Donny Dvorin: So why don’t you finish the sentence? I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn’t started.

[00:18:58] Shiran Herzberg: So it wouldn’t [00:19:00] be, where I am today.

[00:19:00] If I hadn’t started driving my crazy first car, and if I hadn’t stopped accelerating into blind corners, it’s an energy tool, marketing rights. if you, go fast in your car. You spend out of money and you don’t know that you need to break into the corner and you put guests into the corner, just going to flip over, right.

[00:19:19] Or get out of track. Seeing was the budgets. When you work with marketing, you need to start very strong and you need to know how to optimize and how to, hit the brakes when things are not working.

[00:19:33] Donny Dvorin: Once you hit the brake into the corner, do you accelerate out of the.

[00:19:38] Shiran Herzberg: Once you go into the corner, you hit the brake until you hit the apex.

[00:19:42] Right? Once you hit the apex, you straight the wheel, and then you can put guests, but inside the coroner, you need to break in order to shift the weight of your cart. The other way. So whenever you hit a brake, the car would go lean forward. All the way it will lead forward inside to the [00:20:00] corner.

[00:20:01] And when you put gas, it will lean out. If you do it inside the corner, you will push out the car from the

[00:20:07] Donny Dvorin: corner. And specifically with marketing. can you think of any examples where you’re like, whoa, we’re spending too much. We need to pump the brake and then all of a sudden you hit the gas again.

[00:20:17] Shiran Herzberg: It’s basically our day to day job. We do it. Marketing based in CPC and NCPN with a lot of different publishers with millions of dollars and stake. And when the publishers are, increasing their spend and we see the effect on our end is not the same. We make sure that they slow down. We make sure that they change the ads, make sure that we optimize rights, can shift budgets between better performing, placements.

[00:20:44] So less performing placements. We can shift budgets before. States or countries can shift budgets between products, crypto to stocks, depending where you are and so on. So basically we always are on the numbers and we know how to [00:21:00] break, whenever we need. And we know when to accelerate. Like marketing and like racing.

[00:21:05] Donny Dvorin: Last question for you. Can you nominate another brave marketer that we should have on

[00:21:09] Shiran Herzberg: the show? So Nicola’s fund holder is the CEO of Delta, the app for tracking your assets. It’s both for crypto and stocks. Thousands of other assets as well.

[00:21:19] Donny Dvorin: Shiran thanks you so much for coming on the brave Margaret or podcast.

[00:21:22] We’re so happy to have you on and how can people,

[00:21:25] Shiran Herzberg: I’m pretty active on my LinkedIn. whoever has any questions I’m happy to. Thank you very much for having me, Donnie. It was great to be here.

[00:21:33] Donny Dvorin: Thanks again for listening to another episode of the brave marketer podcast. I have a question for you. Do you want to stay on top of everything that’s going on with brave ads?

[00:21:45] Are you a marketer? Do you want to know about our new product launches? Do you want to know about marketing in a cookie plus world, but do you want exclusive content and industry. Sites where there’s a very, very easy way to do that. And that’s signing up for [00:22:00] our brave ads, insider newsletter, and you can do that@brave.com forward slash ad news.

[00:22:07] Again, that’s brave.com forward slash a D N E w S. And one other special special treat for you listeners. Do you want some brave swag, some free, brave swag? Well, if you do just do two things, write us a review on apple podcasts, and then just tell us that you wrote a review. So we know ad sales@brave.com.

[00:22:32] So again, we’re going to send you swag. All you gotta do is write a review, an email. A D S a L E s@brave.com and finally musical credits go to my older brother, Ari and special, thanks to Sam and Chez for all their amazing production work. And until next time .