[00:00:00] Donny Dvorin: Modern marketing changes fast and great marketers needed edge marketers from challenger brands need to be especially brave. This season. All our guests are from challenger brands. Join us as they unveil the strategies and tactics behind the risks that they’ve taken. They’ll talk about the biggest coldest marketing campaigns that got their brand noticed and made an impact in the industry.

[00:00:29] Hosted. Brave software and me Donny Dvorin, head of sales at Brave. Join me to get fresh new perspectives and the inspiration to say yes to brave marketing moments.

[00:00:44] Welcome to the first episode of season three. We’re really excited to be back in your ears. And this season, we’re going to do something a little bit different. We’re going to focus. Challenger brands. Challenger brands are usually newer companies. Many of the times, [00:01:00] DTC direct to consumer, but not always, but they’re really challenging the status quo.

[00:01:05] They’re not any of these brands that have been around for 50 or a hundred years. They’re usually newer brands. And with that, they have two challenges because if you’re talking to Kraft, Unilever, Proctor, and gamble, and one of the brands there people already know about their brands. So it’s more. Their campaigns that are standing out or how they’re thinking about privacy and third-party cookies with challenger brands, they need to get their company out into the market and they also need to get the actual brand and the product that they’re selling into the market.

[00:01:38] So they have a dual. Which I think makes it even harder to do marketing at those brands to really stand out, because there are so many new and upcoming challenger brands. And so we’re going to focus on those. And I think you’re really going to like the stories that you’re going to hear because they do have to stand out and to kick off the season.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] We’re going to talk to Helen Who leads marketing and communications at angel list. Now, Helen spent the last 12 years leading marketing at plaid, Quora, Dropbox, and even Facebook. And prior to working in tech, Helen worked in the advertising industry, managing automotive and technology clients for Venables, bell and partners and young and Ruby can in today’s episodes.

[00:02:22] Just some quick takeaways that I thought that you’re going to like. We talked about moving from regular conference events to virtual events and some best practices to increase engagement. We talked about growth programs that are aimed at existing customers. Instead of acquiring new users. We talked about investing in community and life cycle marketing to stay on top of mind for consumers and then measuring ad units.

[00:02:44] All different audience. But before we get today’s episode, we want to highlight our brave pick of the week. So every episode we choose a brand that has run an ad campaign with brave. And today we’re going to be talking about Yubico. So you, because the number one security key for strong two-factor multi-factor and passwordless [00:03:00] authentication, and they ran push notifications to increase brand awareness and to drive users to their web.

[00:03:05] And then found really good success with us. So finally, please help me in welcoming the pie maker, extraordinary Buffalo sports fan creator of the fundraiser and founder of equal justice initiative and author of the book. Have your cake and eat it too. Helen. Welcome to the brave marketer podcast. How are you doing today?

[00:03:25] Helen Min: I’m good. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah.

[00:03:27] Donny Dvorin: We’re excited to have you on, as I mentioned in my intro, you have so much great backgrounds and all the companies that you’ve worked for in the past, and we really want to dive into that, but let’s start with you.

[00:03:39] Right now, what’s the most exciting thing that you’re working on at this present?

[00:03:44] Helen Min: Well, right now we’re busy preparing for the six annual Angelist confidential conference. So once again, because we’re still in a pandemic, it will be a virtual event spanning three days. And it’s packed with content and insights and big names and a VC, and a lot of hot takes.

[00:03:58] So we’re really excited about this year’s [00:04:00] program. that’s consuming all of our time right now. Talk

[00:04:02] Donny Dvorin: to me about how. Doing virtual conferences as different from the actual in-person events. there’s a couple of obvious things, but I would love to hear it in your opinion.

[00:04:11] Helen Min: It’s a great question. And definitely one on everyone’s vines, I think a year ago. it’s we are started to lock down and our 2020 event marketing plans were all being crumbled up. And we had to rethink the year. I think the biggest thing, the most obvious thing is you don’t have an, a venue or fancy decorations and the big production to hide behind.

[00:04:30] So it’s really your content front and center. I think, I’ve always been somebody who believes that, events are really just a channel by which you deliver. Great content, great messaging. but I think, there are so many variables that go into a great event, a great attendee experience that you just can’t hide behind them.

[00:04:46] So this means that teams are really getting back to, core principles of messaging. what value are you providing? what valuable insights Can they take away? you know, you don’t have the fancy food and drinks and, the fun party and the live [00:05:00] band and the gift bags and all these things that I think are,important parts of what makes a great event experience.

[00:05:05] You know, you just really have to go back to the content.

[00:05:08] Donny Dvorin: so both of us have been on. B2B marketing or sales side of conferences where we’re trying to get, leads and really create relationships with people. So when we get back to our offices, it’s oh, remember when we were at the bar and we were talking about X, Y, and Z, is there a way, or have you seen people recreate that at all?

[00:05:26] Virtually.

[00:05:27] Helen Min: So we tried a couple of ways. so I think early pandemic, we were definitely in this. Sort oflet’s test and learn. Let’s see what sticks, because nobody has a playbook that’s working just yet. So we’re all going to be creating our own playbooks. We’re all gonna see if find,magic and the different experiments that we try.

[00:05:41] So we tried some panels. we had, an interactive component where people could ask panelists questions. and then, that sort of allowed them to see each other’s names and network. angel is confidential. Last year, we had dedicated breakout sessions at the end of each day, where we invited our customers to join the zoom.

[00:05:57] And then we randomly,separated them into [00:06:00] different breakout rooms with a angel list team member in the room to moderate conversation. Opportunities to network. I don’t think it’s the same as, being able to just meet somebody, face to face at a conference or, see somebody you’re sitting next to, and you’re watching the same program.

[00:06:15] I think that we’re getting creative in ways to allow people to connect.

[00:06:18] Donny Dvorin: So. I’m familiar with Angeles. I’ve been in the startup world for a while, but for those people listening, who don’t already know Angeles, can you just take a minute and share a bit about the business and what you do as an organization?

[00:06:30] Helen Min: Absolutely. So AngelList is the leading platform for early stage venture investing. Angeles gives people the opportunity to participate in the venture economy. So that means that, people can invest in startups. it’s no longer something that is happening behind closed doors, just through.

[00:06:45] You know, a legacy network, having to know somebody who knows somebody, this also allows more startups to get the resources they need to change the world. So we offer products and services to fund managers. So if those are people who want to start a fonder, syndicate investors, people who invest into [00:07:00] those funds are syndicates and of course founders.

[00:07:02] Donny Dvorin: And you’ve worked for some big brands that people know outside the valley, like Cora, Dropbox, Facebook. what enticed you or drew you to evangelist? Yes,

[00:07:11] Helen Min: I joined list, just a couple of weeks after the new CEO, came in. And, I think that when I look back at my career,I’d be lying if I say, oh, I knew Facebook would be really big when I joined or I knew Dropbox was going to be big or plaid.

[00:07:25] I think platysma is a great example of one that I think people had not heard of. right when I joined them. And,with Angeles, I saw that there was a really exciting opportunity for them. Pivot the business,and really get crisp on exactly the value they provide at this moment in time where I think angel investing, startup investing is becoming very popular and through the pandemic, one thing that we saw was people got into investing and there were not as many,other activities for them to participate in and network.

[00:07:52] I think, with zoom startups, being able to pitch themselves to investors,investors being able to see and hear a lot more startup pitches,from [00:08:00] the comfort of their own homes, rather than driving around and finding coffee meeting and here and there, it’s accelerated, the growth of this industry that already was growing at two years ago.

[00:08:08] So I think, seeing that it was going to be a really interesting time with new leadership and new focus, was just a really exciting opportunity for me to see like how marketing could play a role.

[00:08:17] Donny Dvorin: you’ve been there, like you said, for just about two years, what are some of the biggest changes or campaigns you’ve been responsible for leading that have made the most impact?

[00:08:25] Helen Min: Yeah. when, the CEO started, what we talked about, from a go-to-market standpoint, there were two big priorities at the time. the first was changing the business model from Carey to fee. So Kerry is how traditional venture firms, making sure. may carry on the fund, changing the business model to fees, particularly through a product called rolling funds, allowed us to have, more predictable recognizable revenue on a quarterly basis, which allowed us to invest back into the business and,create a high growth, and then the second objective that we had was to pivot Angeles as a well-loved ten-year-old start-up community brand to a trusted financial services brand.

[00:08:58] So I’d say every marketing [00:09:00] initiative and campaign, in last two years has been in service to one or both of these two parts. we immediately changed pricing and policies to support and scale a growth engine, and sorta scale the network effects that were already happening on the platform.

[00:09:10] we spent a lot of time connecting the dots backwards and helping make sense of every product launch,over the past 10 years and in different stories,used, owned and earned media to refine and amplify those companies’ stories. a big part of that was last year we launched angeles.com.

[00:09:24] The Angeles was a evangelist is still it’s a holding company as well. And that it has Angeles venture angel is talent product hunt, which you’ve probably heard of Republic CoinList. And so angeles.com was the first time we would be able to tell the very venture specific story to our specific. of investors and founders, and to do this, we invested heavily in content.

[00:09:43] not only the blog, but our also our new venture education center, because we think Angeles really has this opportunity to be the definitive place for people to learn about venture capital. one challenge though, if for any of you out there who have, launched a new website, We are competing with our own old website.

[00:09:58] So angel.co [00:10:00] is 10 years old and has still a lot of great content. So for Google, we’re almost competing with ourselves for domain authority, it’s getting better and better every month. and I don’t think this will be a problem for that much longer, but,it’s a real challenge. It’s funny.

[00:10:12] Donny Dvorin: As many of our listeners know the brave marketer podcast is all about a brief marketing moment. When the marketers that we interview did. Special risky and exhibited bravery. So Helen for you, what would you define as your brave marketing moment from your career?

[00:10:31] Helen Min: Yeah, I think just because we’re talking so much about angel list right now, and the conference being top of mind, it did, he takes me back to.

[00:10:37] But a year and a half ago at the start of the pandemic where, companies like ours that rely so heavily on their communities, community engagement. Ithe Angeles community is a huge differentiator. it’s, a unique differentiator for us in our space. And these in-person programs,were very meaningful.

[00:10:52] Every quarter, we would do, five cities in person bring the community together. in addition to that annual,large scale event in San [00:11:00] Francisco. And I think it was around February where we’re just, looking at the case rates and looking at the writing on the wall for what was going to happen next.

[00:11:06] when office has started to close, we had to make a call. if you’re an events, that definitely a large event, six months lead time. Sort of the minimum for that. And so, you know, do we cancel the venue that we already booked? It was just sort of like figuring out what to do from there.

[00:11:18] when, know putting everything on pause was not really going to be an option. So I’d say that the brave moment was just taking, one thing at a time and figuring out like what we’re going to try and helping the company feel comfortable with like that. We’ve never done this before.

[00:11:30] But it’s not an option for us to sit out. So we’re going to try some things and some of it’s not going to work. I’d say the biggest one there, was the decision to put angel as confidential online. and we really leaned into the online format and said okay, what does being online?

[00:11:44] being virtual, allow us to do that being in person doesn’t and the first one was. let’s make the conference, three days long, otherwise would have been three X the budget in the past, Or require attendees to carve out three full days of their time. Now, when it’s, virtual, people can jump in and out of sessions, they can configure the [00:12:00] agenda of the conference to make it work for them.

[00:12:02] so that allowed us to experiment, add a lot of new content, a lot of different speakers and. And then the second thing that we did was we opened up handful of sessions to everyone and tested this out as lead gen opportunity. And we wouldn’t have been able to do that in person.

[00:12:16] there would be space constraints and qualifications and things like that, but we use Twitter. we have a very active Twitter page or Twitter handle and,opened this up to anybody who’s been following us, interested in venture and just sorta like wanting to see what this was all about, what Angeles was all about, what the conversations were.

[00:12:32] in the venture community. And that was, another very worthwhile risk to take. We learned a ton doing this and that largely informed how we approached it this year, because again, we’re faced with another virtual event, instant.

[00:12:45] Donny Dvorin: Totally makes sense. One of the quotes from your blog we found was investing in marketing. Doesn’t always mean hiring a big team and spending a lot of money. I love to know that the Genesis of that quote, when you’ve first started thinking about that, or maybe [00:13:00] some examples, where you’ve resourced, and came up with something without a lot of

[00:13:03] Helen Min: marketing.

[00:13:04] Yeah, thanks. write some blog posts, on my blog. when I have time, it was a pandemic hobby for me and the audience that, you know, I’m usually speaking to their technical founders and investors are very like technical product centric startups. And I think there’s this perception that in order to.

[00:13:22] Invest in marketing, you have to have a large team and a large budget, and it’s oh, if we hire one, then we got to hire five or 10 and we’re only a five person company right now. Or we’ve just figured out product market fit. I think there’s this perception that you have to go all in with marketing.

[00:13:37] And so I try to write these blog posts to get founders, to feeling comfortable with what are the first steps that they can take. Now, even if there’s not a marketing team in place. So that when they eventually do bring in a marketing leader or a full team that, they’re setting them up for success and they’re also figuring out a lot of things on their own ahead of time.

[00:13:54] It’s actually been five years since I’ve had a large team or a large budget, which was my head of enterprise [00:14:00] marketing job at Dropbox. so since then every change that I made or every, career change that I made was,with a smaller team, a more nimble team, that’s motivated by problem solving and, writing a playbook rather than running it.

[00:14:12] So how does this show up? I think, there’s a post about this one too, but it’s investing in what I call smart generalists. These are just business minded athletes who are motivated by solving big strategic problems where like marketing just happens to be a lever for impact. versus somebody who is like going to be a career marketer.

[00:14:30] so that’s one way that I think you get a lot of efficiency, and can make a large impact with a small team and a small budget,

[00:14:36] Donny Dvorin: I think some other strategies to keep teams small and high-impact,I think, one that is often overlooked, at startups, it’s prioritizing growth programs that are aimed at existing customers over acquiring net new.

[00:14:48] Helen Min: And I think that, there’s a lot of, talk about CAC LTV. There’s a lot of talk about efficiencies you’re getting from. Ad channels. it’s something that I think people talk about all the time and, VCs often asking these [00:15:00] questions as well as they evaluate companies.

[00:15:02] I’m a big believer in investing in community and creating life cycle programs that keep,your product and your company top of mind for your customers as they’re growing. especially with companies that have high growth individuals and businesses as customers, because as they grow, you’re.

[00:15:17] Impact on the organization grows as well. And so that looks like I mentioned, lifecycle marketing,figuring out how are you incentivizing them to,do word of mouth marketing for you. how do you have referral programs? How are you engaging their network? into your channels.

[00:15:31] So I think those are some ways to leverage what you have versus spend a lot of money on acquiring net new.

[00:15:38] Donny Dvorin: So at brave, we ended up spending a lot of time thinking and talking about privacy. I would love to know how Angeles is thinking about privacy.

[00:15:46] Helen Min: Yeah,I guess first and foremost ventures in financial services and the financial industry.

[00:15:51] The most highly regulated industry in the country. but most importantly, when it come to money, trust is paramount and,

[00:15:57] we take user privacy and confidentiality on [00:16:00] platform very seriously. And, so that includes security protocols for logging in and identity verification, KYC. but also communicating our policies regularly and taking swift action when there is a breach of trust. I think the speed in which, a company moves and upholds their policies and values, is just as important, to earning trust, as the product or even just, being transparent about what the values are.

[00:16:22] it’s the actions that you take it.

[00:16:23]

[00:16:24] Donny Dvorin: Got it. So moving outside of the Angeles a little bit, I’d love to hear your kind of bigger picture of you about, marketing, the advertising industry in general. What do you think is the biggest threat or most pressing challenge we’re facing? I

[00:16:38] Helen Min: think it’s the, actually the same challenge that marketers have always faced, which is, that there are new frontiers and new channels and figuring out how to leverage them and, how to use them the right way efficiently, in a compliant manner.

[00:16:52] the only difference is right now, I just think that pace of innovation is faster than ever. So wherever. maybe there was a [00:17:00] multi-decade, time period where TV was the primary channel. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, we have to get used to digital. Now digital is broken up into, 20 different segments within there.

[00:17:11] And I just feel like the frequency in which a marketer is having. Learn and onboard, how a new channel works, how to communicate with the audience through that channel. it’s just happening more and more frequently.

[00:17:23] an example that I talked to founders about all the time is a couple of years ago, I was working at plaid and Brex, which is a. Credit card for startups. they had taken out a bunch of billboards in downtown San Francisco, which was genius because that’s where all the startups are.

[00:17:38] their marketing towards startups. and this caught the attention of every founder like, oh, should we be doing outdoor advertising as well? That personally cracked me up because I actually started my career in Chicago doing outdoor advertising. So it was just like, oh, this new medium. Oh, you mean this old one that’s been around forever.

[00:17:52] and so what happened was every founder tried. space and then which drove up, demand, drove up prices, and then it became a [00:18:00] less efficient channel. So then they got off of outdoor advertising and, they moved under radio or they moved on to something else. And so it’s just this game that I think that, like you were working in this industry for a while, you see this just move.

[00:18:11] And so I think like one thing that has been useful. Is to just not think in absolutes, okay. A hundred percent of my budget should never go to one channel. Like it should always be like, okay, what are the three channels that we generally invest in? what does good look like?

[00:18:25] What is always on? what are the optimizations that we make? but then also just as important it’s I think it’s just having know. Like an experimental culture and a mindset on the team that rewards curiosity and experimentation with new channels. because I think this is just, it’s going to be a requirement for people to just get comfortable with, figuring out, whether new channels are going to be successful for them.

[00:18:44] You might miss out on, a clubhouse room or tick-tock or podcasts like this. if you’re sort of like, Nope, I got my channels. I’m good. I don’t want to see what else is.

[00:18:53] Donny Dvorin: Yep. It’s, there’s so many correlations between investing and marketing spend, investing.

[00:18:59] Everyone talks [00:19:00] about diversification, but you don’t want to be too diversified where you got your money in a thousand different areas. but you don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket. And it’s like just what you’re seeing about marketing. three different channels, maybe it’s five different channels.

[00:19:13] I think there was a book. John O’Neill, I think is the name that I read so many years ago. And when he was talking about building a stock portfolio, he found that his magic number was owning eight stocks in eight different industries. that was his thing. And so everyone’s got their number, the number of,different marketing channels.

[00:19:29] But I think you’re exactly right. You can’t put all your money and billboards and hope that all your marketing problems.

[00:19:34] Helen Min: Totally. I think it’s different about, channels today is that there is no such thing as set it and forget it. Facebook ads, right? Google ads, like there are these ad consoles, they give you opportunities to upload 20 different versions of creative than the like auto optimize, what’s performing best it’s you really have to pay attention.

[00:19:52] So I think. channel management also requires you to have somebody or, a group of people to be paying attention and, refreshing [00:20:00] creative, making sure things don’t get stale. I just don’t think that was as much the case before. when you think about some traditional channels where it’s okay, we do a couple campaigns, maybe once or twice a year.

[00:20:11] And,we create all the Creative at once it ships and that’s it, so I think that’s a big difference today as well. It just have to always be paying attention. somebodies fingers always have to be on

[00:20:20] Donny Dvorin: the. Yeah. I think the prior generation of marketers were relying so much on TV and you’d have your MMA studies, your marketing mix models, and you would get the research back from Nielsen or IRI, which is an

[00:20:33] Helen Min: absolute exact science.

[00:20:35] Right, right, right.

[00:20:36] Donny Dvorin: Yeah. But you’d get it back,two months after the TV campaign ended and then that would inform. Two quarters from now. And it’s just like when digital came around, it was just like, you can make changes, on the fly, based on yesterday’s data, you can inform tomorrow as a creative.

[00:20:52] Totally.

[00:20:53] Helen Min: But I think, I’m so glad you brought that example up because I think one thing that we’re seeing,in digital marketing is that [00:21:00] because of the sort of immediate nature of being able to measure campaigns, people have this sort of false, there’s a good salad. Precision on,how effective something was.

[00:21:12] so we’re going from one extreme to the other where brand advertising in the past television, we rely on like these Nielsen studies and maybe products moving off shelf, like six months after the campaign. So it was eh, not an exact science, but everyone knew it.

[00:21:26] I think digital particularly like No direct response advertising because the feedback loop is so immediate. I think people almost fooled themselves to say that this is an exact science,like attribution model is getting better and better. We can quantify and measure every single thing that we do.

[00:21:42] And, I think that’s true, it has limits it’s to an extent, I think we’re still,moved by. Big brand campaigns. I think we’re still people at the end of the day and an emotional appeal is still there. It takes time for people to really understand and consider how a brand might.

[00:21:59] impact their [00:22:00] lives and whether a product is for them. So I just think that the immediacy and the measurability of a lot of digital channels today almost creates this false sense of security on how exactly their marketing is working. it’s more measurable than before for sure.

[00:22:13] But I also think that there’s an art and intuition and a story That requires a person to really change their minds about a brand or, consider a new brand, that I think just can’t get sped up at the same rate that I think we’re we

[00:22:27] Donny Dvorin: expected to.

[00:22:29] Yeah. Do you think marketers should still be thinking about brand advertising in DRR advertising in two separate buckets and that’s okay you do think that way there’s nothing wrong with that or Melted together a little bit more where you see just awesome creative or even the medium that it’s presented on.

[00:22:48] Can you accomplish both with one ad or

[00:22:49] Helen Min: not really? Oh, that’s a great question. If you can accomplish one with accomplished both with one ad, yeah. I’ve seen it work where you’ve got, one team that’s fully branded one team [00:23:00] that’s fully Dr. Wright and they like barely intersect.

[00:23:02] Then I’ve also seen it work where like direct response ads are an integral part of a brand campaign, Where it’s these are the more short-term metrics,That you’re paying attention to over the course of like maybe a six to 12 month brand campaign that has no digital ads as part of the mix as well.

[00:23:18] so I’ve seen it work both ways. Could one ad. Yeah. I think it absolutely could. It depends on where the customer is in the funnel or in their journey. if you’re seeing an ad, and it’s the second or third time, That the. Prospective customer, is hearing from you then I think it’s moving them down the funnel and closer to conversion.

[00:23:35] Whereas if it’s the first time, prospective customers hearing from you, it’s going to take more time. So I think like the real question is how do you capture the correct measurement for both of those use cases, right? Not bucket them together and think that your ads are working in a certain.

[00:23:47] certain. So, yeah, that’s a great question. I’m gonna think about that one for a little while after this conversation too. is that a new way to be efficient? Write an ad that speaks to both and moves people progressively down the funnel, but at different stages.

[00:23:59] Donny Dvorin: Yeah, we have this [00:24:00] challenge on the brave browser where we have on ad unit called a sponsored image when you hit a new tab.

[00:24:05] So think of like a homepage takeover. And we say, look, this is a billboard on the side of the highway that happens to be on the brave browser, but then we allow them in the corner of the ad unit to put, 20% off or, $20 of Bitcoin when you sign. So there’s like a Dr. Element to it. And then as soon as we allow them to have a promotion, they go, oh, this is a Dr unit, but we go,no.

[00:24:33] This is a branding unit. And so it’s a challenge. It’s like really hard because they want to get Dr. Metrics out of a branding unit because we allow them to put up. Yeah.

[00:24:42] Helen Min: the one benefit, I think, as somebody with a very small team, works at small startups, benefit of having smaller teams is you have the same person who can actually look at that holistically and say, Hey,we’ll see, we’ll run this, we’ll run that ad unit for a couple of weeks.

[00:24:58] We’ll see. Whether our [00:25:00] audience is responding more to the, the Dr component or if we’re getting more like brand metrics from it. And then you’ll optimize either way. I’m sure you can shut off those components. whereas if it’s a large team you’re selling into and then the audiences or the teams are completely siloed, You’ve got to now coordinate across two teams to figure out how to use one ad unit. I can see the complexity there. Yeah, it must be a challenge I can

[00:25:20] Donny Dvorin: imagine. Yeah. what we ended up doing exactly what you’re saying though. The measure, the conversions that they got, or they’ll do their CAC or CPA analysis, but then we’ll also run a brand survey before the image ran and right after it ran and show them the lift on intent or awareness or whatever they want to measure.

[00:25:40] And to your point, it’s the same person. So then they can say, look, I got this great lift, my CPA wasn’t that great, but I got this great lift or the other way around, it wasn’t much of a lift, but you hit all my cat. it works. Yeah.

[00:25:50] Helen Min: from early days at Facebook, when we were,experimenting with different brand lift studies and we partner with Nielsen and a lot of those guys too, to figure out.

[00:25:59] As we’re doing a [00:26:00] Dr. Campaign, can we also do a pre-post sort of survey to see like how much, does this Dr. Campaign actually impact, brand awareness recall in the longterm. yeah, I think that’s really.

[00:26:11] Donny Dvorin: Yeah. I remember the deal that Facebook did with data logics, early on. And that was all about measuring, not only the lift, but really the lift inside of supermarkets and drug stores and seeing

[00:26:20] Helen Min: if the, yeah, it’s been quite awhile since I left Facebook, but do think that now it’s just a really exciting time to be working in the advertising industry.

[00:26:28] Just this experimentation.I always think best time to join in, on a movement or. joined a company is like when there are a lot of open questions and you’re going to be there to do the work, to answer some of those questions. I think those are almost like a historical from like a historical standpoint, right?

[00:26:45] Like you’re helping answer questions. You’re helping write the playbook for how to do this. Yeah, good stuff.

[00:26:50] Donny Dvorin: Final question for you. Can you nominate another brave marketer that we should have on the show why that person?

[00:26:56] Helen Min: yeah. So the first person that I can think of is Emily Kramer.

[00:26:59] so she is [00:27:00] the former CFO of Carta. she’s just somebody I’ve gotten to know really well over the past year, we actually have a syndicate together, called MKT one collective on, Angeles. We’re the first marketing led syndicate. We’re trying to get more marketers. Into angel investing and invest behind us as we invest into coal companies.

[00:27:17] and what makes her stand out? I think she’s worked in some of the really important brands in tech, including Carta and Asana. and she’s just like a great storyteller. I really appreciate her perspective on things, having built teams, at really high growth points, in a company’s life cycle.

[00:27:32] And yeah, she’s just a lot of. So help connect you

[00:27:36] Donny Dvorin: with her. Perfect. Thank you. And Helen, how should people get in touch with you if they want to I’ll reach out? Yeah.

[00:27:40] Helen Min: I’m one of those people that is on Twitter all day. I’m at Helen min and,you can send me a message. That’s

[00:27:46] Donny Dvorin: probably the best way.

[00:27:47] That’s great that you got the handle. That’s impressive. Okay.

[00:27:51] Helen Min: Thanks so much

[00:27:52] Donny Dvorin: for having me well, this was fun. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. We really appreciate it. Take care. [00:28:00] If you like what you heard today and found it valuable, it would be super helpful. If you took one minute to leave us a short review in apple podcasts, every review counts and helping us to get our shows and more ears on one final note, if you have a brand product or service that you’d like to get in front of.

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