[00:00:00] Donny Dvorin: Yeah, no industry changes faster than modern marketing. Great marketers need an edge. Great marketers need to be brave. The brave marketer podcast provides an opportunity for each guest to share a story where they exhibited bravery by taking a risk. They made a dramatic impact in the market. Our guests are marketers from top brands and agencies who share the exact strategy.

[00:00:30] Tactics they used in their brief marketing moment. We then dive deep into topics like ethical advertising, consumer privacy, crypto marketing, brand safety, and navigating a future without third party cookies, hosted by brave software and me Donny. Head of sales at Brave together. We’ll get a backstage view of the brave marketing moments and creative mindset work that shaping today’s most influential break.

[00:00:54] Yeah.

[00:00:58] Hello, brave [00:01:00] marketer listeners. You’re listening to a new episode of the brave marketer podcast. And this one, we’re going to feature a Darren Herman. He’s the operating partner at Bain capital. And you’re going to love this one because Darren has got so much great experience. I’ll read you his bio in a second, but before you have a chance to listen to it, I want to highlight our brief pick of the week.

[00:01:18] And so, as you know, every episode, we choose a brand that is run an ad campaign with brave. And our pick of the week is actually chain-link. And they’re a new partner that connects your smart contract to the outside world through a decentralized Oracle network that provides reliable tamper-proof inputs and outputs for smart contracts on any blockchain.

[00:01:34] While there’s a mouthful, they drive quality traffic via push notifications and massive awareness through sponsored image takeover. And it really seeing great results. So let’s talk about Darren. as I mentioned, Darren is an operating partner at Bain capital, where he works on growth strategies prior to joining Bain capital.

[00:01:50] He spent time leading the first privacy preserving content platform at Mozilla and spent nearly a decade on Madison avenue, leading digital programs and ad budgets, large and small. [00:02:00] Darren’s had some impressive accomplishments. In addition to launching the first paid tweet ever for Kim Kardashian, he launched one of the first programmatic platforms in the world.

[00:02:09] And even recently won a silver line for creative business transformation. Darren has been rated by Businessweek as a top 25. Entrepreneur his agencies. I’ve been recognized by media connection and media magazines as a top agency in global corporate venturing. And he was ranked as a top 100 global corporate investor.

[00:02:25] We’re excited to have him as our guest. And now for today’s episode of the brain marketer.

[00:02:38] Well, Darren, welcome to the brave marketer podcast. How are you doing today?

[00:02:42] Darren Herman: I’m doing well and yourself. Thanks for having me on.

[00:02:44] Donny Dvorin: Yeah, I’m doing well. Thank you. why don’t we just start with, what’s the most exciting thing you’re working on right now?

[00:02:49] Darren Herman: Most exciting thing. there’s the digital transformations that are an evolutions that are happening within our companies here at Bain capital.

[00:02:59] and then there’s [00:03:00] The side hustle. such as some of the angel investments that I make and in new spaces that are usually outside of what we would do here at Bain capital. So get excited about where I’m focused these days in the collectibles the sports card and sorta NFT markets.

[00:03:14] So that’s been exciting.

[00:03:16] Donny Dvorin: Well, we have a lot of crypto listeners.

[00:03:18] Darren Herman: where do you think are the investment opportunities? Are they like the NFT exchanges? Is it the producers of them or the, like where is the opportunity?

[00:03:25] Donny Dvorin: Money-wise

[00:03:26] Darren Herman: exchanges are only interesting. If you can get to significant volume, otherwise they’re not great businesses because they’re taking small points on every single transaction that happens.

[00:03:35] but if you can be the dominant exchange, then you know, the world’s amazing. if you’re the creator, I think the creators. Parts of the world are really interesting right now, because you can monetize downstream where you would never be able to do before. So if I was an artist and I was just traditionally selling in a gallery, the minute I sell my art through the gallery, I take my cut and then I never see any downstream [00:04:00] effects of my art again.

[00:04:01] but in the NFT world, the ownership changes a bit and I can set royalties and I can set other sort of factors thatI can monetize myself even if there’s a secondary tertiary or some other transaction down the line, even years down the line. And so I think it has great effect on the creators themselves.

[00:04:20] we’ll start to see it. Industries like, the music industry with artists now that are creating music and beyond video games, et cetera.

[00:04:28] and so excited for where that goes. But I think it will absolutely affect those

[00:04:31] Donny Dvorin: good. So obviously, you know, that this podcast is all about brave marketing moments. So can you share your brave marketing moments where you took a big leap of faith and you were.

[00:04:42] Darren Herman: So it’s a good question. there’s probably a handful that, can talk about, I’d say one of which in no particular order we were in a new business pitch way back in the day. This is when I was on the agency side of the business and we were pitching a very large financial institution and we [00:05:00] were invited in and all they wanted.

[00:05:03] From the brief that they’d given was, a big television plan. and we usually want to market or ask for something, you just give it to them. whether it’s right or wrong, you just give it to them. Cause that’s what they asked for. but we didn’t do that. and we want it the complete opposite.

[00:05:17] We actually didn’t have any TV on the plan and was working at a media agency at the time. And so our job was to, plan recommend and execute the measure and optimize any type of media that you’re putting in the market. And this market are really wanting a TV. We came in with a completely digital plan.

[00:05:35] We did have digital video, but this was a long time ago where it wasn’t so easy to do digital video at scale. and we ended up winning it’s like a three or four month drawn out pitch process. We ended up winning because we didn’t tell them what they wanted to hear. and they weren’t expecting that.

[00:05:49] And then we were able to use pretty good arguments based in data. And they’re very quantitative arguments to make the case that what we were doing is probably more right than wrong, not perfect, but more right than [00:06:00] wrong. and why just a TV plan was not going to cut it and.

[00:06:03] So I’d say, the brave moment there was not give the marketer what they expected and I’d say, that was onemaybe a second which I’ve worked with, some of your colleagues in the past on was, I joinedFirefox or Mozilla’s Firefox, I think back in 2000 it was it 13.

[00:06:20] andI joined them to lead an initiative to build the first privacy preserving content and an advertising recommendation systems within the browser. imagine trying to do that in a browser, like Firefox where everyone, using the browser itself, but. I don’t want to advertise it and don’t want recommendation.

[00:06:39] Donny Dvorin: It’s just not much easier at brave. .

[00:06:42] Darren Herman: So imagine being on the front to that. So I have a headstart on you. and I got to work with a bunch of your colleagues and it was fascinating and it wasn’t easy. because not only did some of our customerssome of our users, our entire user base of, the web browser say, what are you guys doing even before we launched.

[00:06:58] but even [00:07:00] internally within the organization, so fair amount of change management, it never happened within the organization. and so we were on the front lines. but through, the 24 months or however long, I was there to work on the project and then it went on have its own.

[00:07:13] it took a life of its own. and we got to show the world that actually doing privacy preserved content recommendations, actually, isn’t going to hurt you. and it makes your life better, more often than not.

[00:07:24] And if you don’t want it, you know, turn it off. and we did that and that was a huge sort of step through Pandora’s box And I’d say that was probably one of the bravertimes of my career. and I was excited about that.

[00:07:37] Donny Dvorin: Where did you know where the privacy preserving content or ads lives today?

[00:07:40] Darren Herman: It’s open source, so that’s cool. so you know, it’s online, but we’ve used a fair amount of that in the acquisition of pocket.

[00:07:47] And so the pocket team started to use some of the technology. The relationships, the business that we built out within content services.

[00:07:55] Donny Dvorin: Nice. Got it. Good. So I know you were involved with partnering with Kim [00:08:00] Kardashian on some paid, Twitter posts. can you tell us about that? Did you work with a specific brand?

[00:08:04] How did that come about?

[00:08:05] Darren Herman: You know, we’re going way back. so I was at a media agency at the time and we were known to do super creative media tactics and, Twitter was popping up. I think south by Southwest, it just happened.

[00:08:14] And Twitter was like all the rage. And there’s literally I think at the time it was like 10 million users. That’s it? maybe it was 3 million or 10 I’m totally blanking. And Kim had A third of all Twitter users as followers. So if it was 3 million people, she had a million and if it was 10 million people ship, just over 3 million followers.

[00:08:32] And many had come to us and said, Hey, we’re thinking about doing this thing called like paid tweets. We think that, this would be awesome for you guys to get involved in. Then I was like, yeah, probably be super cool. And so I looked at our client base and we had a particular client.

[00:08:48] We were launching Armani jeans here in America. And Armani jeans are pretty popular in Europe and Armani exchange is popular here, but we’ve never really had Armani jeans brand. And [00:09:00] this was like a perfect opportunity to take the Armani jeansand partner with cam launch. We were doing some stuff with Christiana and all though.

[00:09:07] And Megan Fox. separately. And so this was like nice to put into that same, level. so what we did was we pay X $10,000 at the time, which seemed like a lot of money. but today it’s like pennies for what she gets. andwe gave her the ability to go to one of our stores in a mall.

[00:09:26] and try on the jeans, take a picture. and then tweet like code for her followers to get, some discount off the genes. and it was in mid August, which in Internet times it’s like a dead month.

[00:09:39] so the minute she tweeted that . and uploaded the picture and the promotion code. we melted the servers and Armani jeans.com. Like literally the servers went offline and it was our busiest e-commerce day of the year. it’d beat black Friday, cyber Monday, Christmas, you name it.

[00:09:57] and we were down we literally were down for [00:10:00] hours because of the traffic that was being pushed to the server. And this is, back, I don’t remember seven, 2007, 2008 maybe. and redundancy in cloud, wasn’t really a thing. so our money e-commerce team was scrambling to keep their e-commerce site up.

[00:10:13] So That was some fun we had with Kim and the team we, that they’re

[00:10:17] Donny Dvorin: nice. it was obviously successful because they melted their service,

[00:10:19] Darren Herman: the biggest sales there might have you ever had, we saw how many people use the promotions code.

[00:10:24] and , uh, when you look at comp, so retail runs on comp. And you know how this day, this year performed against this day, last year, et cetera, both. Total revenue, margin dollars, et cetera. We crushed it. and not just on the single day, but as you looked out, weeks and months pass, Armani, geez.

[00:10:45] in the United States definitely took a life of its own.

[00:10:47] So you mentioned your media experience, you launched Varick, right? Can you talk about That experience of launching the varrick? . when I was at the agency, I was at a mediation called the media kitchen, which was part of MDC partners, [00:11:00] which is a publicly traded advertising, holding company.

[00:11:03] We saw the writing on the wall for programmatic advertising and marketing. and didn’t have a capability or an organization within the 50 or so agencies that MDC owned that could own and operate this particular space. And so I raised my hand said I’ll build it. and so Varick was a combination of human talent plus technology that allows marketers to buy individual impressions, layer data.

[00:11:30] And do extremely targeted paid advertising. it started in display but then most media channels are now all programmatic. and the activation of both third and first party data gets layered on and becomes super efficient and effective for marketers.

[00:11:47] that was a lot of fun because it was a startup within a large publicly traded holding company.

[00:11:51] was a very good business for the holding company overall. and it was the future of media. and one could say it was a brave sort of, media strategy because [00:12:00] nobody knew it early on. but now if, when you think about, the share of digital dollars that are beingspent or invested, within the advertising market, A big percentage of them are programmatic one way or another.

[00:12:11] and guess if people are looking for a business to compare it to, there’s a really solid publicly traded company called the trade desk that is you know, dominating the public market. Completelyin the programmatic advertising space.

[00:12:25] I think the whole sort of programmatic ecosystem crystallized for me, we had a call. Named Piaggio.

[00:12:31] Donny Dvorin: which is a huge motorcycle company at Italy.

[00:12:34] Darren Herman: But everybody in the United States knows their scooter brand called Vesper. and so we were doing some work for Vesta and we did an entire campaign. Where we targeted it based upon a whole bunch of different demographics andin different markets and, the whole programmatic advertising really crystallized for me when you saw the data that you get back on, who’s interacting with the ads and who’s clicking on the ads and who’s[00:13:00] purchasing and you can really get segmented.

[00:13:03] And so we learned a lotof information about our Vespa buyers.. and those customer insights, we then used to then build scooters that appealed more towards those respective audiences. andyou could bring advertising insights up into product innovation and product development.

[00:13:22] And that’s really where, you feel that you can, drive results. And you know, really, leveragethroughout the organization. And so that was super successful. And, that’s when I sat back and was like, all right, we got something here and now we just gotta keep doing it.

[00:13:34] So we built it into a really strong business hired many folks, many of the folks who’ve since gone out and are running big organizations today. and when I look back on my teams and in my organization, I’m proud when they’ve gone off to do really cool things and that Varick team isn’t running most of the advertising ecosystem these days.

[00:13:53] So I’m excited about it. We hired well.

[00:13:55] Donny Dvorin: That’s awesome. Yeah. And if you think about itif you were to continue down the path and [00:14:00] like maybe a break it off from MDC, could it be as big as the trade desk? Could it be a multiple. Billion dollar organization on their own, because like you said, the business models are so

[00:14:09] similar.

[00:14:10] Darren Herman: Yeah. So we were approached many times to potentiallySeparated out. butMDC wanted to capture the value for itself and, for the time it was, our performance was a part of the rise of the MDC stock during that time period. And I’d say MDC at the time captured quite a bit of that value.

[00:14:25] Donny Dvorin: And you talked a lot about the targeting that you were doing on the Vesta by specifically creating like the custom audiences and then having it full circle. How much do you think that’s going to be changing over the next, couple of years with the demise of the third-party cookie and privacy and all the changes that Apple’s making?

[00:14:42] obviously it’s going to get a lot harder to do that. Where do you see?

[00:14:45] Darren Herman: So I can talk out of both sides of my mouth on this one, I can make arguments for both sides, I try to think about it. These types of questions and, how have other industries or businesses been affected and what happened there?

[00:14:57] and usually it’s, [00:15:00] the toothpaste never goes back into to it kind of analogies that I’ll play here which I believe in which is, the minute that, you get to phase out of the tube, it is very hard to put toothpaste back in that. And I think in the advertising ecosystem, even when we weren’t doing quote unquote programmatic targeting or very data enriched buying, we were still doing audience targeting in the previse.

[00:15:26] So even in like mad men, when Don Draper and Harry, whatever were Carrie crane were like figuring out what the media strategy should be for the mad men brand. Way back when they were still doing audience analysis to understand what audiences are watching, what shows or reading, what magazines, and then what go into those shows or magazines based upon the audience composition.

[00:15:52] So always about competent reach and frequency. and so that hadn’t changed. Just the evolution of that has been. [00:16:00] Even being more precise than trying to get rid of the waste of doing that because, way back when you would buy on composition and even if it was like an 80% composition of the target audience you wanted to reach, you would have 20% waste.

[00:16:15] And you’re okay with that because you’re getting 80% of the audience you want to. the beauty of digital was that you should in theory, be able to waste less. now whether that’s true or not is not the point, but in theory, you should be able to waste less. and so I still think that we’re not going back to mad men, days of reaching frequency based upon composition numbers.

[00:16:35] I think that system. and platforms and sites or whatever you want to call them browsers. they will enable ways to privacy preserve to be able to reach audiences through advertising. and the reason why I believe that is because if you get a random ad in front of you, that has nothing to do.

[00:16:57] The experience is less [00:17:00] of, if you got to a non-random ad that has something to do with you at least a little bit, then the experience is heightened. And I like it to like that as growing up playing video games. And whenever I played a video game where the brands were either non-existent or fake and the teams were like,

[00:17:20] you felt like the game like cheap and wasn’t great. And the experience wasn’t fantastic. and the minute that you saw real brands in the game, and you saw like real teams and you saw real players, It heightened the experience and the premiumness of that respect of game. It’s why licenses for sports leagues for the video game industry are expensive.

[00:17:42] it’s why licenses of, whatever brands to be used in other brands in film and television and radio, et cetera, is expensive, Cause it adds a premium nature. so, you know, I think humans naturally want things to berelevant to them to a point.

[00:17:57] but when things are [00:18:00] super not relevant, it detracts from the overall experience. And so I think, just the way of getting there and bringing more privacy preserving ways to be honest, respect of the user will enable us to achieve that. And then the second side is.

[00:18:14] The death of the cookie. I think, we’ll see brownies and cupcakes find out anything about the ad tech industry. It’ll find ways to reinvent itself a million ways I think you have to do that though with the customer in mind

[00:18:26] and do it in a way that’s, privacy preserving and respects, the end-user if you can do that, then you could maintain trust with that end user.

[00:18:33] Donny Dvorin: Yeah.

[00:18:34] so you won a silver lion for creative business transformation with your work with RGA, for Michael’s. What was the strategy behind that? And what was your role?

[00:18:45] Darren Herman: Cool. So there’s a lot of people that won that have worked on our side. not just me. butBain capital used to be a large investor in a business called Michael’s, which is a national arts and crafts retailer.

[00:18:57] and there was a core insight of that [00:19:00] business was we forgot who our customers and when we re centered on who our customer was, which is the maker, we completely transformed that entire business around this maker philosophy.

[00:19:10] And we put the, make our front and center in everything we do both in the stores online in any omni-channel capability.

[00:19:17] cool part for me is usually at,my job and being capital. I don’t get to sit inside the organization.You know, I sit within Bain and then I help from the sidelines. This is one of those special ones where I was the chief marketing officer of Michael’s for six months. And I was literally in Dallas pretty much full time and

[00:19:33] we’ve won many awards, but this one means a lot to me because I was there.

[00:19:36] take it out of Darren’s worlds for a second. What do you think is the biggest threat or what’s some of the most pressing challenges facing the marketing advertising industry today?

[00:19:45] There’s a handful of things that are out there.

[00:19:47] how do you target regardless of whether it’s cookies or not, but do it in a way that’s, privacy preserving and the user. of the internet or any worldwide web connected device, et cetera, part of the process as opposed to [00:20:00] the end process in itself.

[00:20:01] and I’m excited about that. there’s a great book written by doc. Searls called the intention economy. I’ve brought that into a bunch of the work that we did at Mozilla and Firefox. I think he’s like on the forefront. Of a lot of that thinking through, I think he’s over at Harvard and doing a lot of sort of academic studying of the ecosystem.

[00:20:20] there’s ways that consumers can be part of things and not just be targeted at or targeted to. and I’m excited about that. that’s a huge growth area, I think, for the next decade plus andThat’s an area that I think deserves quite a bit of attention because a lot of things aren’t figured out there.

[00:20:35] just to interject there. I always believe that advertising should be bought based on attention I guess CPA would make a lot of sense. the value of that attention of who you’re targeting. just as an example at brave, we have something called the ten second visit rates.

[00:20:50] Donny Dvorin: So how many people click the ad go to the landing page and spend 10 seconds or more on that landing page? now we’re not charging per se on a [00:21:00] ten second visit rate. We could, but we’re not. But something like that where you’re really paying for, time and attention.

[00:21:06] Darren Herman: Hear you loud and clear. My first startup I ever did at scale where we raised venture money.

[00:21:11] This is like in the early two, thousands was putting ads and content within video, right? And we measured time on screen angle of ad, because a lot of these are worlds where, you knowyour brand isn’t exactly, being shown head-on. and so angle time and size of screen. So size of ad in relation to the percentage of the screen that it’s taking up.

[00:21:34] And so we had like those three, metrics and it like blue. Media planners minds. but the problem was they didn’t know what to do with it.

[00:21:43] Donny Dvorin: They don’t know how to like Billy, like what do I

[00:21:45] put on the,

[00:21:45] Darren Herman: exactly. It doesn’t fit into the template of the plan and it’s a custom metric and you know that the advertising world doesn’t love custom.

[00:21:54] and it doesn’t fit neatly. that learning for me. It was like any [00:22:00] subsequent business that I had, spend time with either advising or investing or doing whatever it’s you got to conform it to what the world of marketing is looking for.

[00:22:10] Donny Dvorin: It’s so true. I was at a startup called this moment and it was the same exact problem because we were building out custom.

[00:22:15] YouTube channels and Facebook pages and Instagram. And they’re like, is this creative side? Is this the media side? They didn’t know where the budget was, you know where to put it. And everybody loves the idea. But if you can’t be in a line item, you’re not on a line item.

[00:22:31] Darren Herman: Amen. That’s exactly that. and so, you know, if you really want to get to scale through, media.

[00:22:38] Then you got to fit on an assertion order and it’s hard not to you could offer all the bells and whistles and the nice ways to measure, et cetera. But unless you sit there nicely, it’s tough to scale.

[00:22:50] Donny Dvorin: Yeah, exactly. and on the flip side, where do you think some of the biggest opportunities are, and maybe that’s one of them, the idea of a

[00:22:56] attention to cost?

[00:22:57] Darren Herman: Yeahthe attention economy is a huge one. we all like to [00:23:00] think that we’ve cracked measurement. We have not cracked measurement. the famous John Wanamaker statement of, half my advertising is working. I just don’t know what halfstill exists.

[00:23:07] And, for the marketers that have really studied their spend, even the most sophisticated of them will say there’s still some assumptions based in there. and measurement. I don’t know if we’ll ever get to the holy grail of measurement there, I think measurement iswe’re like 65, 70% of the way there, but we’re absolutely not much further than that.

[00:23:26] and then the other opportunity that I absolutely love is, maybe it’s because I’m old school, but creativity. saw a really good ad recently and the copywriting was amazing. . And it reminded me of like a David Ogilvy spot print ad from I don’t know, the eighties, the seventies, the sixties.

[00:23:44] And was, I think for Adam shoes. and the copywriter was phenomenal and I haven’t seen anything like that in a decade. And it was actually like a long writing was basically telling the user why they should pay 129 or [00:24:00] $139 for this pair of shoes. And they were unapologetic to the cost and it was like dead on.

[00:24:06] the insight that I assume that came out of this wasagency did a bunch of work to understand customer insight to the shoes, to the price point, positioning. The number one hurdle was price. and so they copy wrote an ad that had just a picture of the shoe and then the copywriting all about why it’s worth the price.

[00:24:23] And it was spot on. And actually, I saw it on Instagram. And I just messaged them back and it was an ad that was served to me and I just, responded to it. and I was like this, I want to know who your agency is like, kudos. This is great copywriting. and this is what advertising should be.

[00:24:39] I thought it was phenomenal. And when those moments happen, Like when you see a good ad, no. Or you see a good, anything, you see a good film, you see a good concert, you see a good whatever. and I want to bring a lot of that back because so much of what’s been done today has gotten so watered downit’s boring.

[00:24:54] It’s monotonous. it’s so simple. and great messages don’t always live in a banner ad. when is, when was the last time someone [00:25:00] talked about a banner I want to see innovation come forth.

[00:25:02] and when it happens, people talk about it and that’s why I love the advertising industry or the marketing industry is because. And, as much as we talk about the technology and the data and the mathematics and the optimizations, and, all the, one side of the brain, there’s also the other side of the brain that has to work.

[00:25:18] And for things to truly break through, you have to have some magic and you never know where the magic is gonna come from, but you got to go for it. And I want to see more sort of marketers and brand officers and digital officers, lean into the magic because that’s where a lot of things happen.

[00:25:32] Donny Dvorin: We use that as part of our sales pitch. Nobody says, oh, I just remembered seeing this banner ad or I just R or screenshot a banner ad and post it to Twitter or read it and say, this is great. But shameless plug, it happens nearly every week with brave the sponsored images that we’re running on. The let’s like our homepage takeover type unit when Chipola Ron’s, when Crocs is running last week, like people go to Reddit and they’re like, oh, look at this great brand on I’m [00:26:00] brave.

[00:26:00] And they talk about. And there was actually a listener of ours who went and created a whole website dedicated to all the sponsored images.

[00:26:09] it’s brave.photos and that brave.photos . If you want to check it out there, and as we’re talking, you can see every sponsored image. That we’ve run since the start of time. And you can really see the creative way that they’re doing it. and this is what people are talking about there.

[00:26:26] Darren Herman: I like it.

[00:26:27] Donny Dvorin: Good. So you’ve done a lot interesting things in your career,

[00:26:31] Darren Herman: Can you

[00:26:31] Donny Dvorin: nominate another brave marketer that we should have on this show?

[00:26:34] Darren Herman: there’s a lot of good marketers out there.

[00:26:35] I think there’s a lot of bravery though on the agency side. and probably more so than it gets to the market.

[00:26:41] And, agencies are putting together ideas that breakthrough,

[00:26:45] So if I were to have to nominate someone for this brave marketer podcast, I would talk to norm below of the escape pod. And what I love about what norm does is, he works at big brands, works with small brands, but what’s [00:27:00] consistent about their work is that The amount of bravery, it takes to launch the work is significant.

[00:27:08] And, he is able to convince marketers, chief marketing officers, boards, CEOs, et cetera, that they should launch this work. And I think that’s a really interesting conversation to have for you, which is how do you have that conversation with a marketer? With, the CEO with the board to say, I know this is a little edgy and I know that this may, ruffle some feathers on the way out, but when this does get into market, it’s going to stand out.

[00:27:42] And I think that’s a huge process. and a skill that norm and his team are collectively very good at. And would have that conversation

[00:27:51] with them.

[00:27:52] Donny Dvorin: Great. We definitely will reach out. if you want to make an intro, that’d be great too. so Darren thank you so much. how can our listeners get in touch [00:28:00] with you if they want to,

[00:28:00] Darren Herman: super easy think on Twitter in most social channels, it’s D urban 76 and feel free to reach out anytime.

[00:28:07] The Herman 76.

[00:28:09] Donny Dvorin: Great. thanks for coming on the brave marketer podcast

[00:28:12] Darren Herman: and Donny. Thanks for having me and appreciate you. you invited me off.

[00:28:15] Donny Dvorin: Thank you for listening to today’s episodes. There were some great takeaways. Obviously love the story with Kim Kardashian and starting a Varick as a programmatic agency.

[00:28:25] So hopefully you enjoyed that. We’re able to take away some moments that you can inspire your own career.

[00:28:31] And if you liked what you heard today and found a value, it will be super helpful. If you took one minute to leave us a review in apple podcasts, ever if you counts and helping us getor show him more ears. And on a final note, if you have a brand product or service that you’d like to get in front of Braves, 34 million.

[00:28:46] Users, please email us@adsalesatbrave.com and let us know your podcast listeners to unlock one of two perks. If your budget is under $10,000 a month, we’ll bump you up to the top of our self-serve waiting list. Or if your budget is over [00:29:00] $10,000 a month, you qualify for a 25% podcast listener discount.

[00:29:04] Again, email us@adsalesatbrave.com and finally musical credits for the music that you’re hearing and the intro and the outro. And throughout goes to my own brother Ari Dvorin. . Big shout out to him. He writes great music out of Austin, Texas. thank you very much. And have a great rest of your day and week. .