Luke: If you’re listening to a new episode of The Brave Technologist, this one features Elizabeth Hanson, who is the president of Stand with Crypto Michigan, and founder of the Detroit Blockchain Collective with a background in engineering and decentralized systems. She now works at the intersection of technology and policy leading grassroots advocacy for digital assets across Michigan.

Luke: Elizabeth has been instrumental in mobilizing communities, building coalitions, and advancing federal legislation to support innovation in the digital assets space. We sat down with Elizabeth live at Rare Evo in Las Vegas. If you’re watching this one on YouTube, you know, we created a pop-up podcast studio right on the show floor.

Luke: Elizabeth came by to talk to us about political advocacy for crypto, what it looks like and why it matters, what policymakers often misunderstand about crypto, and how she helps ’em see the fuller picture. What types of legislation are needed to support innovation right now and protect users, and how local communities can get involved and have a voice in shaping these policies.[00:01:00]

Luke: And now for this week’s episode of the Brave Technologist.

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Luke: Elizabeth, welcome to the Brave Technologist. How you doing today?

Elizabeth: It’s amazing to be here. I’m doing great. Yeah.

Luke: Thanks for coming on. I’ve uh, really been looking forward to this one. We’re at, thank you. We’re at Rare Evo today in Vegas. I understand that you’re speaking at the conference today.

Luke: Would you mind giving us a high level kind of, of what you were planning on talking about in your discussion today?

Elizabeth: Absolutely. So we had a panel with Stand With Crypto and Coinbase. And we really talked about the growing role of advocacy, specifically grassroots advocacy in shaping policy.

Elizabeth: Really talking about a people up approach connecting communities with legislators. As you know, it’s a super hot time right now. Yeah. With legislation with crypto. It has been a whirlwind, I wouldn’t say a year, but it hasn’t even, but really since January. Right. It’s been insane. Yeah. So we’re really seeing the impact of what happens when communities get involved and make sure their [00:02:00] voices are in the room when these policies are being crafted for digital assets.

Luke: It’s fantastic. Appreciate your work too, for the fact that it’s just kind of like, as a long-term builder in the space, like actually seeing kind of this much grassroots activity actually result in something, you know, the clarity we’re getting with things is just fantastic. why is this topic important to you and and how does it relate to the work you’re doing with Stand With Crypto?

Elizabeth: Sure. So, you know, I’m probably not the only one who noticed that during the last administration, we really saw America fall behind. With innovation, emerging tech, especially digital assets. And that’s not something we have to just, take lying down and accept. We look at the rest of the world and we see the other G8 countries really excelling because their legislators, their government understood.

Elizabeth: Crypto is the future of money. Mm-hmm. This, you know, this isn’t a fad, this isn’t going away. Right. Right. This is an integral part of our world economy. So the countries that saw that, who took action to add clarity and, and really to [00:03:00] modernize their regulatory frameworks around finance. Those countries that got it.

Elizabeth: They really saw the positive impact of that in their economy and the participation of businesses in innovation. And I saw America slipping behind. Mm-hmm. I saw, you know, I’ve been in Difa since 2016 or so. And I saw companies leaving the States. Right, right, right. And I mean, we were part of shaping the conversation to start with.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So to see all these companies leaving the states to see defi builders leaving the States was really heartbreaking for an industry that I believe in so dearly. So, I saw this, happen and I heard about Stand With Crypto, you know, and learned about what it is that they’re doing.

Elizabeth: And the more I learned, the more honest I just fell in love with what their mission is. It’s very grassroots. Mm-hmm. First of all, stand The Crypto is a nonpartisan organization. They’re a nonprofit. And their goal is to give the community a voice on Capitol Hill. Mm-hmm. To give us [00:04:00] builders, small business owners and crypto users, a voice in the room where these policies are being crafted, that will dictate whether or not our businesses will succeed.

Elizabeth: Right. Whether or not crypto users can use crypto. You know, without persecution basically. Yeah. Yeah. So I saw that and I, and I wanted to be part of it.

Luke: So, yeah. So, how was that journey kind of going from software engineer into politics? Is it something you kind of ever saw yourself going into, or is it something that’s just kind of like you saw the call to action ran for?

Elizabeth: That’s a good question. So I started in this space, as you said, as a software engineer. And and moved into technical management and as then as CTO for a defi company. And it’s interesting, the longer I spent in tech, the more I realized how misunderstood it is outside of the tech circles. Like if you’re not a dev.

Elizabeth: And I thought that would change over time, but it really wasn’t. And so eventually I realized you can have the most elegant solution in tech and the most [00:05:00] brilliant ideas, but if the public perception and if the lawmakers and legislators don’t get it and aren’t ready for it, you’re not gonna scale.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. You’re not going to thrive. Mm-hmm. And it’s really going to hurt your mission. Yeah. So. When I realized that and then I saw organizations like Stand With Crypto that we’re actually doing something about it and having a positive impact, I thought, I have to be part of this. I have to be a part of, of something that’s really having a lasting and important impact on the industry.

Luke: That’s fantastic. No, I love that. You know, was there something specific that kind of sparked a transition or transition to going from kind of defi into policy and, and. Or, or was it relatable? I mean, like how hard was that? Like jumping from, from, you know, engineering software where stuff’s pretty technical, but now you’re going into this world of like, policy where, you know.

Luke: Sure.

Elizabeth: So I’ve always paid attention to politics. Yeah. I’m an activist by nature, so I’ll never just sit still if I see something that I’m unhappy with. Right. So one, I already have the interest to be an activist to try to [00:06:00] create positive change. And also I’m a community builder at heart. I’ve been doing community building for a long time, since I started helping around 2017, more 2018.

Elizabeth: And now I run the Detroit Blockchain Collective. It’s an organization I founded in Detroit, and it’s a grassroots community hub for builders and innovators and creatives. Anybody who. Is interested in building and learning about blockchain tech and it’s very education based, but we also do a lot of workshops and so I digress.

Elizabeth: Um, Oh no, it’s okay. I mean, was there a

Luke: specific problem that you didn’t see anybody resolving that you really wanted to kind of resolve with the Detroit Blockchain collective?

Elizabeth: Not necessarily with the Detroit Blockchain collective itself, although the members are community that participates in the organization I saw them becoming frustrated with the lack of clarity mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: Around regulation. There are a lot of question marks for builders of. How you can build and be in compliance and even the classification of assets. It’s unclear when you’re building a defi, are you building, are you, you know, are you [00:07:00] creating a security? Are you creating, you know, a commodity? Mm-hmm. And then which regulatory body is, is supposed to, do you report to?

Elizabeth: What rules do you want to follow? I mean, everybody that I’m working with, I’m from Detroit. They’re amazing people. They’re honest people. They want to build. In compliance, but there’s no clear rule book for that. Right. And so I really saw innovation either drifting out of the country or dying down locally.

Elizabeth: And yeah, I wanted to do something about that. I saw Stand with Crypto was actively creating a positive impact and change working with legislators, connecting the community. And they asked me to lead Michigan. So that’s, that’s ultimately how I started with dealing with crypto.

Luke: How is it actually working with the policy makers?

Luke: Like, is it are they. Is it a tough thing to kind of like educate them on? Are they receptive to it? Like what’s a, is it something where, you know, once they get it, they get it? Like I, I, I’m just super curious about that. ‘cause you know, we only tend to hear from them when they have a position on something and sometimes it seems like those positions aren’t [00:08:00] necessarily like either coherent or, or necessarily even lining up with the reality, you know?

Luke: Sure. So how is it when you’re actually working with them?

Elizabeth: So I found legislators to be surprisingly receptive. Oh, that’s awesome. And that, that hasn’t always been the case. Mm-hmm. because advocacy organizations like Stand With Crypto, we’re seeing this increase in receptiveness from legislators.

Elizabeth: And what I’ve been really encouraged to see is it’s becoming less and less. Bipartisan. Mm-hmm. Right now we are seeing, there really isn’t much of a divide. Like if we look at how, we voted on genius. Right? Right. It was a very bipartisan Yeah. Vote. So that’s really encouraging. What’s interesting is you see more of a, a delta in the age gap for people who.

Elizabeth: Vote for legislators that vote for crypto or against it. So it’s a little bit of a generational divide of people really understanding the tech and the value. So to answer your question, I’m seeing legislators be more receptive. I would say though, what’s unique for legislators with crypto is. I, I think it’s safe to say that most of the time or a good deal of the time, legislators have a good [00:09:00] understanding of the topics that they’re creating laws for.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. A better understanding than, you know, the average Joe on the street. Right? Sure, sure. But that’s not the case with crypto. It’s, it’s like the opposite. So this is really something that we need to educate legislators on. And it’s something as simple as bringing community members forth and sharing what they’re working on.

Elizabeth: Right. And humanizing crypto, you know, a lot of legislators. Associate crypto with either something speculative right, or unfortunately something criminal. Mm-hmm. And so really trying to bring the stories of builders into the room. You know, sharing how families sent remittances right overseas to support their family.

Elizabeth: Sharing how builders are creating real solutions in their community. Sharing how crypto has really changed people’s lives for the better. Humanizing crypto to legislators and really helping them to understand what a difference is making in our life. That changes the conversation completely when they hear from real people.

Luke: Oh, I bet. Like, what do you find is kind of the, the most common misunderstanding or misconception around crypto when [00:10:00] you’re speaking with these legislation or the policy makers?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I would say that it’s a speculative thing. Yeah. They think it’s just, you know, oh, crypto is something either people get rich with or or go broke.

Elizabeth: Right, right, right. You know? Right. They think it’s a scam. ‘cause there are a lot of scams out there. Totally. You know, let’s be honest. Yeah. And frankly, that’s why we need good regulation. Yeah. Right. We need good regulation for the consumer protection and then to help people innovate, to give them clarity, to give them confidence in building.

Luke: Yeah. And yeah. ‘cause I mean, when you see policymakers sometimes, like argue against crypto a lot of the time, like if somebody that’s on the technical side or on the technology side, I feel like. They’re, they’re one, it it, they’re kind of shallow arguments that are being made. But like the thing that gets lost is how much of an upgrade, the technology is.

Luke: Right. Where like, if we had had transparent, public blockchains pre. 2008, someone would’ve caught on to a lot of the, machinery that, you know, ended up causing a lot of the financial crisis. Right. Like, and, and absolutely. It’s a great point. [00:11:00] And it feels like a lot of these people that are arguing against crypto are some of the people that were kind of arguing against a lot of the, the 2008 issues that were happening.

Elizabeth: 100%. And we both know who you’re talking about. You’re talking about. Yeah. And what’s, what’s ironic is these people that are, you know, speak out strongly against crypto claim to be the government officials for the little guy. Right. Right. And be against big government and corruption. But I just wanna shake them and be like, crypto is the equalizer.

Luke: Right, right. Crypto

Elizabeth: is what empowers people who don’t have resources. Exactly. Crypto is changing people’s lives all over the globe. If you care about the people, you will let them use crypto freely. You will let them build these. These small businesses that are changing people’s lives.

Luke: Yeah, no, that I totally agree.

Luke: I mean, it’s just opening up access for things, right? Oh, absolutely. That typically you had an impossible barrier to get in for people that were under a certain, you know, financial, you know,

Elizabeth: a hundred percent. It lowers the barrier for entry. Absolutely. [00:12:00] You know, just things like talk about a, a small business getting a loan,

Luke: right?

Elizabeth: It’s kind of crazy that like. To be successful, you already have to have some pretty good resources, right? It’s really hard to come from the bottom up to get a loan for your small business. So, you know, explaining to legislators things like, okay, a small business owner can get a loan in a permissionless way with no barrier to entry.

Elizabeth: And also in a trustless way, they don’t have to trust the other party, right? They’re using smart contracts to say, okay, this is, this is how it’s gonna happen. I can trust that it’s gonna happen. They can get capital for their small business. It’s an equalizer. Yeah.

Luke: That’s awesome. No, I mean, what types of legislation are most important right now to kind of support innovation and protect users in the digital asset space?

Elizabeth: Market structure, if we don’t have market structure,

Luke: let’s go into that a little bit. Yeah. Like, mm-hmm. What, when, when you say market structure, like for folks that might not be so familiar with it, like, what kind of, you know, clarity will this legislation bring to market structure?

Elizabeth: Sure. So.

Elizabeth: Market structure. The current bill right [00:13:00] now is the Clarity Act

Luke: Uhhuh.

Elizabeth: Okay. And so our house voted for it in a very bipartisan way. Now it goes through the Senate and. What this will do, it will lay down the rules of the road for crypto businesses that wanna build in the industry. Mm-hmm. It makes it very clear what is the security, what is a commodity?

Elizabeth: Who oversees what, whether it’s the SEC right. Or the CFTC. And really lets businesses know how they can build in compliance. And. It creates the clarity that they need to be able to build with, with confidence.

Luke: Awesome, awesome. Yeah, because I think people don’t really understand like a lot of this regulation that’s on the books is like a hundred years old, right?

Luke: Like you’re dealing with like really? Yeah. We’ve got

Elizabeth: like 200 year old security laws that they’re trying to apply to crypto. Very. And it doesn’t make sense, you know? So we passed the genius law and that’s, you know, that has to do with stable coins. But now we need to know how are we going to use crypto?

Elizabeth: How are businesses going to build? We have to have that clarity. If we don’t have market structure and have this clarity going forward, we’ve got other countries that are already like way ahead of us. Mm-hmm. [00:14:00] And you cannot overstate the impact that crypto’s going to have on the world, on our world’s economy, on power structures.

Elizabeth: And if the US is not going to be part of that conversation in setting those standards and participating, we’re gonna get left behind.

Luke: Yeah. No, and, and there’s another angle to this too. I mean, I think that. You know, we’re dealing with global networks, right? And then in the US you know, we have a federal government and then we also have state level governments.

Luke: Like how, like i I is state level advocacy important in this regard? Like in, in even though we’re dealing with technology that’s global.

Elizabeth: This is a great question. I think a lot of people wonder like, what’s the point of state level legislation? Right? Right. Does it add value? Is it redundant? So. There’s a regulatory gap left by federal regulation that the states are intended to cover.

Elizabeth: Okay. So one, it’s necessary. Mm-hmm. There’s things around tax laws and commerce energy regulation, a lot of things that are not supposed to be just managed at the federal level. Mm-hmm. So states come in with that. [00:15:00] So not only is it intended that states have certain laws that cover these topics.

Elizabeth: But also it’s actually a very beneficial opportunity for states to curate laws that are tailored to the nuances of their ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Right? Each state has their own unique ecosystem, the opportunities that they need, the, you know, what their economy relies on what’s important to their people. So it’s incumbent upon these states to develop that regulatory framework at the state level.

Elizabeth: So that these businesses even, you know, how state level businesses can participate you know, in, in financial transactions in the markets, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lots of things that the states need to address, and there are states that are doing this really well. Wyoming is, you know, doing amazing Arizona, and, and I mean actually it’s a popping up like crazy just the past six months, once regulators.

Elizabeth: Said, okay, we’re going to provide proper regulation for you. I mean, just the energy has been unreal.

Luke: Totally. Yeah. So,

Elizabeth: It’s great seeing states legalize DAOs. I mean, so this [00:16:00] is an example you’re asking, okay, what are the states doing in the federal? Isn’t, there are states that have legalized DAOs who’ve said, okay, we’re going to accept this as a legal agreement.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That blockchain transactions, we’re going to legitimize that. Right. Fantastic. Yeah. Amazing mining initiatives. Right. Because a lot of these things are meant to be regulated at the state level. Recognizing digital assets as property. Mm-hmm. You know, in a lot of states, if somebody passes away or you get divorced or you need to allocate assets or divide assets, if crypto isn’t recognized as property, there’s a lot of chaos involved.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So bringing that clarity about what is what. Legitimizing crypto as an asset that can go a long way to bring organization and success to small businesses and individuals that hold crypto.

Luke: That’s fantastic. Yeah, I think it’s a really, really, really a great answer. And you know, what is a user first approach to crypto legislation actually look like

Elizabeth: innovation first.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. And then add the corrections that you need. Mm-hmm. Right? You can’t go in. With an [00:17:00] antagonistic view of crypto and then like gradually little bit adding like with some skepticism you know, what, what you’re going to allow. Mm-hmm. You have to go in with the mentality of innovation first and then we’re gonna.

Elizabeth: See what guardrails do we need to add, right? Right. How can we protect consumers? How can we let these businesses thrive? Right? So if you go in with clenching, we’ve already seen we’re falling behind. Yeah. That was the approach of the prior administration, right? This new administration like lover hate the other politic.

Elizabeth: They’re doing something right. They get crypto, they understand this is the future of money. Yeah. Yeah. Well I

Luke: can say it from like, being, you know, in the space and, and it is like you’re never gonna get market fit if you can’t experiment. And if you can’t experiment because it’s so high risk to experiment, you’re just really killing the ability to innovate and 100%.

Luke: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like it’s been fantastic seeing stand with crypto. Just even in this last set of elections, but even now, like, it’s kind of waking people up to the [00:18:00] fact that they can, the, the population’s gotten pretty cynical, like, with, with politics and things like that, but like, this is actually something where, you know, a, a mass of people have actually had an influence in.

Luke: I dunno. Are you seeing it translate to other things too when you’re talking with people, like you’re, because you’re doing grassroots work, right? is this turning people on to like be more active in other areas besides crypto from what you’re seeing?

Elizabeth: I think it’s creating more civic engagement.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. Because citizens are seeing that their voice really needs to be heard by their government officials. And that there is a direct impact on your voice being in the room when these policies are being created. Right. I mean, prior to stand with crypto. The people legislating this technology, were in completely different rooms from the people using the technology and building the technology.

Elizabeth: And that’s backwards, right? Right. Especially with legislators, don’t have that understanding. So Stand With Crypto has really changed that and brought the community and legislators together so that the community can be part of informing this conversation, sharing why this matters to ’em, how they’re using [00:19:00] the technology.

Elizabeth: What it is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. So that’s really powerful and I think it’s causing people to be more civically engaged and also see that, you know, their legislators aren’t these gods who know everything and, and don’t care what you have to say. Most legislators, they care about their constituents. Right.

Elizabeth: And they wanna, they wanna hear what you have to say about this new technology that’s making a difference in your life. And

Luke: they work for the people. Right. They do. It’s so, it’s so good to like, kind of put that perspective on it. I think. Now, let’s say somebody’s listening to this, right? Like, and they want to get.

Luke: Involved and they want to get more active, on the policy side or or activism side. Like what would you recommend that they do? Is there any advice that you’d give somebody that may be like, kind of looking to find their way and, and make an impact on this area?

Elizabeth: From a policy perspective. Sure.

Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Elizabeth: yeah.

Elizabeth: I would say I would encourage them to speak up and make their voice known. Mm-hmm. The easiest way they can do that. ‘cause if you haven’t done it before, it could be intimidating. It’s just to go on the Stand With Crypto website. Okay. Click the join button. It’s really easy. Provide your information. We email you when legislation is [00:20:00] happening, that affects your rights with crypto.

Elizabeth: Your right to own, your right to build, and we’ll give you opportunities to send a message to your member of Congress for instance. And it’s really easy, like takes just a couple seconds. It shows you a letter. You can change it if you want, personalize it, but they really give you the tools to advocate for yourself.

Elizabeth: So not only to stand with crypto advocate for builders and crypto owners on Capitol Hill, they give you the tools to advocate for yourself. So I would say that’s the easiest thing to do. Mm-hmm. What I would also encourage people to do is. Write their legislators go visit with their legislators. You know, a lot of state level lawmakers have coffee hours.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. Or they’re, they’re open to meeting with you. They’re surprisingly receptive. So, and they need to hear from the people. We need to make our voices known so that people can see how much we care about this. And that’s really, that’s changing history right now.

Luke: That’s awesome.

Elizabeth: so you mentioned the Stand with Crypto website. Where can people follow you, follow your work or reach out to you, get more involved?

Elizabeth: Absolutely. I’m active on X, so come say hi.

Elizabeth: Okay. You know, crypto Twitter, it’s always great to meet in real life, but it’s nice to meet friends [00:21:00] on crypto Twitter too. So my handle is Elizabeth HA, so Elizabeth, E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H. Ha. Mm-hmm. On LinkedIn, you can find me Elizabeth Hanson. Okay. So, and especially if you’re in Michigan, link up with me.

Elizabeth: You know, part of what I do with the Detroit Blockchain collective is help others start their own community hubs. Awesome. So, if people don’t know where to start, but they wanna start their own, you know, meet up or community group. That’s something that I do. And you know, that’s part of the problem that I saw in Michigan is that there was a lot of siloed work happening.

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. And I wanted to see more collaboration. I wanted, you know, it’s powerful when people come together. Right? Yeah. So that’s part of what I try to do. We’ve got amazing university groups, university, Michigan, Michigan State University, doing incredible things at the university level. So I facilitated, you know, some collaboration between them and the community and the government.

Elizabeth: So. A very powerful thing when we’re all coming together for a common cause. Yeah.

Luke: Fantastic. Thank you Elizabeth, for making the time and and sharing all this with [00:22:00] our audience. Love to have you back checking back in on things and again, really appreciate the, the work that, that you stand with crypto and everybody’s done to kind of bring focus and attention on this and, and make progress happen.

Luke: So thanks so much. Oh

Elizabeth: man, this has been such a pleasure. I was honored to be invited to speak ‘cause I remember. Finding brave back in, I know, 2016, 17. Yeah. And so you guys, you guys are legendary. Oh, oh, thank you. It’s really cool to That’s awesome. Yeah. So much. Absolutely. It’s great talking with you, Luke.

Luke: Likewise, likewise.

Luke: Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist Podcast.

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