[00:00:00]

[00:00:35]

[00:00:52]

[00:00:57] Luke: Jacqueline, welcome to the brave technologists. Thanks for coming [00:01:00] in today.

[00:01:00] I know you’re going to have two talks here at the AI summit in New York. can you give us like a high level of what you’re going to plan on talking about?

[00:01:06] Jacqueline: Yeah, sure. So I’m going to talk in this panel around the intersect of fintech and gen AI. We’re going to talk a little bit about, The agentic world and what we’re doing there from a product perspective and then the closing panel on what’s next for For AI and we’re going to then talk a little bit about mindful product management and the importance of that

[00:01:25] to build good products for our consumers

[00:01:27] Luke: Awesome. Have you all been experimenting with AI at PayPal much? And,you have any success stories like, that you can share or any interesting. Findings early. I mean, you don’t have to get too far into the details, but, it can be directional.

[00:01:40] Jacqueline: think the way to think about fintech in general is that a lot of the investments so far have been to its core business Which is risk management and Payment transactions success. So there’s a lot of history there of how a I has been used for payments, which is a big utility for consumers, and you want to get it right.

[00:01:57] You want to make sure that you’re also protecting them. [00:02:00] but the more we see progress of a I and where it’s going, there are really three categories of investments that we’re seeing at PayPal and in the market. So I’ll start with OPEX. I think this is the one that people are more familiar with.

[00:02:13] Where you have all the customer support, the developer support and really thinking through how to make that more efficient and better experiences when the consumer or your developer wants to reach out to you. but that’s really focused on operating expense and,that side of the PNL and then you go into the efficiency of your operation.

[00:02:32] So how can you make sure that, you’re using the tools available to develop more code. So can your co developers, instead of becoming. Full cold developers become code reviewers. How much more code will you be through putting innovation you’re going to be doing if you make that shift the same for the design organization, the same for the product organization.

[00:02:52] How better can our PRDs be when Gen AI is supporting the creation of them? but the one that I’m most excited about is where products [00:03:00] are being made. So another part of the PNL where we’re really looking to generate revenue, create new use cases for the benefit of the consumer and new businesses.

[00:03:07] I see that all the OPEX use cases have a ceiling, which is zero cost to operate. But when you start creating these products for consumers and working backwards from the consumer, for me, that’s where the magic happens. That’s where people get excited about using this type of, technology and where the economy goes round.

[00:03:25] Cause, even if you have zero OPEX, if you’re not making money, what’s the point? Right?

[00:03:29] Luke: the cost, right? Like, I would imagine. Yeah, and, I mean, like, this whole, like, A. I. Innovation leads and roles. It’s all relatively new, right? Like in the space. Like, what are you most excited about? Kind of in this role that you have a paypal? I

[00:03:42] Jacqueline: think

[00:03:43] what I’m most excited about is, when you’re creating these consumer facing products, and you’re using AI, it’s really about having trust, right? And PayPal is a very trusted

[00:03:54] company and brand, and so how can we expand that trust to help consumers navigate with [00:04:00] good products out there?

[00:04:01] Where we’re not only delivering value, but we’re also navigating and setting the standards of what Responsible AI is. Right, but, and here I want to go again, it, Responsible AI is about good product management, and good product market fit. It is not really just about, am I compliant with the regulation?

[00:04:19] That’s the minimum, right? You need to do value, like, who is this consumer? How am I going to serve you well? How much can How much value am I adding to you versus the data that you’re letting me use for that value for you, right? Yeah, like cart

[00:04:36] Luke: Right. Like, yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, PayPal has been so kind of instrumental into like making digital money easier to use, like, I mean, from the very beginning, right. Like in kind of cutting a lot of the steps out that you’d have to go through to a traditional bank. Are there any like interesting, like, I don’t imagine there’s interesting ways people use AI with PayPal.

[00:04:54] where’s your head at with like how PayPal can be used with AI or AI can be integrated with PayPal, like [00:05:00] without giving too much away. I mean, but like, are you guys like thinking about how you can make like purchasing decisions easier for people or, or helping with accounting purposes or I don’t know, like, I mean, finance is a big category, especially the home and peer to peer, right?

[00:05:13] Jacqueline: so definitely on that working customer back, there’s a lot of value to be added to the consumers, right? How do we make purchasing more rewarding for them? How do we deliver, more value from the shopping experience all the way to the post purchase? And PayPal is in a great position to go and do that.

[00:05:31] working customer back starts unlocking use cases around personalization because Some of them want to save time. Others want to find the great next deal and all of those things. So how do we think working customer back of what consumers are really looking for?

[00:05:44] And deliver that to them, right? and so there’s a lot of effort, of course, on risk. we have also a lot of, products to be done there.

[00:05:52] Luke: yeah, totally. Totally.

[00:05:53] So in this new role, like, how is PayPal thinking about AI and the customer experience and how it can help out consumers, [00:06:00] using your services?

[00:06:02] Jacqueline: so, the way to think about it is when you’re building these products, you really, want to make sure you’re adding value to the consumer and working customer back. And it is really special to be at PayPal at this time because we have a few things there. We have great talent to get this done. We have an immense amount of data that we can use to derive value to consumers.

[00:06:22] And we have a, a, large volume of data science that are really looking to extract those values and deliver them back. when you think of where PayPal sits as well, the brand trust is really big. And that really matters to us. And we’re, we’re taking that as center to our approach. How do we help consumers navigate with trust in the era of AI?

[00:06:44] And when I think of where AI is going and, the SMB world, I want to also go there because, I fear a world where only the big tech is investing in this for its own flywheels.

[00:06:55] And small businesses don’t really have the power to [00:07:00] play. Right? So who is building a I that will let them deliver a personal experience to their consumers and without having their the maximum extraction of their revenue by a major platform, right?

[00:07:12] So how can we democratize a I in that way? And consumers will then again have a benefit of finding that type of experience everywhere, not just on the major platforms on the major retailers. The small ones will be able to compete and add their value there and create new businesses. I personally love the angle around, AI inclusion, democratization, being Brazilian, being in FinTech, financial inclusion has also been a big part of my, my life and working backwards from those use cases are really fulfilling.

[00:07:42] So I think at PayPal, we have a really great opportunity to deliver on that.

[00:07:57] Luke: You know, PayPal is a global company, right? Like, and so I [00:08:00] know like on the crypto side too, like there are different ways people are using this technology in different parts of the world. Is PayPal kind of like approaching this regionally? Like, are there ways that you’re testing certain AI use cases in certain regions first, or like, I’m the rubber always meets the road with products, right?

[00:08:15] Like, and, and I’m kind of curious as to like, are there things you’re trying globally, or are you going to try to zone in on different types of cases in different regions where you might get some good numbers and fit, or what’s the, what’s the strategy there?

[00:08:25] Jacqueline: I think as we develop these, we’re always going to start where there’s more value and there’s a lot of products in our roadmap. And working backwards from finding that product market fit. The more global the product is that we can develop, the faster they scale and all of that. But when it comes to AI as well from a consumer standpoint, you need to be very mindful of how the consumers in each of those markets, and of course the regulators as well, but working customer back is how will the consumer feel about it?

[00:08:52] Is this really delivering the utility that they want and they seek? are we giving them enough explainability behind it? [00:09:00] What’s happening and the value that’s being delivered in this product to them. and so, from an international expansion, yes. It’s a global company and we have use cases across the world that we’re looking to deliver.

[00:09:16] I

[00:09:23] Luke: can be generally too, it doesn’t have to be specific to PayPal,

[00:09:26] Jacqueline: Yeah, I think, I’ve been in many companies doing AI. I feel that the right product is not being developed because regulators told us to.

[00:09:34] in this way you actually to find product market fit and generate revenue. You need to work backwards with what your consumer wants, and of course, you have to have the compliance guardrails in mind.

[00:09:45] But that’s for me, the minimum bar. You need to go beyond that bar and delight your consumers. because we’re building a business products are about business, right? And if consumers aren’t comfortable with your product, if they don’t understand how to use it, if they don’t understand the [00:10:00] utility that you’re delivering to them, Then why did you build the

[00:10:04] Luke: not just to have a thing, right, like, or that’s not actually like helping them out with much of anything, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. lot of things we try to do on the podcast. There’s so much like, dystopian kind of like fear mongering around this technology and some of it’s understandable.

[00:10:20] Some is not, but like what areas are you actually kind of concerned around from what you’re seeing? I mean, I’d imagine you have insight into how consumers are using AI. Like, are there behaviors or is there misconceptions or, or, or things that where you’re like, actually, I’m, I’m. I’m really concerned about this.

[00:10:36] I’m not so concerned about Terminator, right? Like, I’m more concerned around these certain areas from your vantage point.

[00:10:41] So

[00:10:42] Jacqueline: I’m

[00:10:42] mostly concerned with the fact that we don’t have enough talent that has done AI at scale before in the market. And so we have a lot of people that are looking to learn. And very little content or people helping those folks out on what good product development is in [00:11:00] the era of AI. Right. And the role of product is about building a business.

[00:11:04] It is about adding value to the world. And so, and working with the data scientists, the engineers to deliver that. and so my concern is that if the product team is not really guiding people towards that consumer value, they’re just focusing on, I need to learn this, and I haven’t seen the movie before, the learning curve curve restarts, and then customer trust might break because there’s someone that did out of best intentions.

[00:11:29] No PM wakes up in the morning and say, I’m going to build a product that’s going to not,

[00:11:32] not

[00:11:33] Luke: work consumer.

[00:11:34] Jacqueline: Right.

[00:11:34] That’s

[00:11:35] not

[00:11:35] what they do. It’s not a good intention. and sometimes the regulation isn’t there yet. So you really rely on these folks to do mindful product management.

[00:11:45] And,

[00:11:45] I just feel that there isn’t enough content out there.

[00:11:48] There aren’t enough people talking about building value to products. They’re mostly talking about operating expense and how AI can help you on operating expense. Not how, if you’re going to build a business out [00:12:00] of this, you need to really work backwards from your consumer, understand what they’re looking for when they’re engaging with your product, and really mindfully design it for that.

[00:12:10] Luke: like, consumer use case for AI where you’re like, this is going to be the killer thing. this would be, like, if I could get these one or two things for users, this would be an amazing consumer feature.

[00:12:22] Jacqueline: I think

[00:12:22] it

[00:12:23] all depends, and, I’d say for financial services, it is really about finding more value and additional value to them. There’s a lot around financial inclusion that can be done, for consumers, yes, because operating cost is now lower so you can actually underwrite to more people ‘cause your cost to underwrite is lower.

[00:12:42] but when you go to other, the demystifying of AI and the driving of utility to that consumer, we’re gonna unlock a lot of unicorns that are gonna come from that in the, and I’m really looking forward to hearing from them. , but I think going back to the point around product management and even [00:13:00] for those unicorns, I think what I’ve learned over the years through many market researches and many companies that I’ve worked with is that you really need to understand what is the utility that you’re going to be driving to the consumer.

[00:13:12] And what is, and if you think of their personal data as the new currency in the sense that I’m giving this to you because

[00:13:18] I’m

[00:13:19] getting

[00:13:19] utility back. And if you don’t give that utility back, you’re going to lose the right to play. And usually, I simplified all the research that I’ve seen and really thinking through five archetypes around how data is being used or how products are being designed.

[00:13:33] And, the first archetype is actually a very interesting use case and powerful archetype, which is that those consumers that are all in. I’ll give you all my data, I’ll use all the new products. These are where the early adopters are as well. But also if, even if they’re not early adopters, those are the folks that want all the convenience in the world

[00:13:52] Luke: Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:53] Jacqueline: and they are a big chunk of our population, especially in the U S.

[00:13:57] and then, and so how do you develop a product that those, [00:14:00] that’s where your hero use case really needs to shine, right? Where you have the early adopters and the people that really looking for that commodity for you to deliver it to them. And then you go to the next. archetype, which is really about that brand trust.

[00:14:12] So, yeah, I’ll be all in if I trust you.

[00:14:14] So then what are your responsible AI

[00:14:16] practices? What is your brand value and do I trust

[00:14:20] your brand? And

[00:14:21] it’s not about product anymore. Yes, the product might have value, but it’s much more about the brand.

[00:14:26] Integrity. and, and, and, in general, do I want to do business with you regardless of the product that you’re offering me?

[00:14:33] And so that’s really your privacy portal. Your mission as a, why are you doing this? You can go to my Simon Sineck on your why, that those are the folks that are looking for that why. and then you go to the, value driven folks that are only going to use your product if they understand the value of it.

[00:14:49] So product managers need to now explain very clearly, I’m developing this for you because this is the value that I’m driving Google Maps, I’m taking it from A to B very seamlessly. you [00:15:00] can pick whatever use case that we use every day. It’s very clear why you’re letting them

[00:15:04] use your data, right? And, Apple has this great, use case where, for this app, I’ll leave my location always on.

[00:15:12] For this app, I understand its value, right? And then you have the other, archetype, which

[00:15:18] are

[00:15:18] the minimizers. They want to use it, but they’ll minimize as much, they want as much utility as you can give them, but they want to minimize how much they are exposed

[00:15:27] Or giving you data for it. And so that, cost benefit for the consumer needs to be explained

[00:15:32] in your

[00:15:32] product experience, right? give me permission to use this. Or restrict this. What are the types of restrictions that you’re giving your consumer so they can feel comfortable? Because the minimizer will very easily turn it all

[00:15:44] off if they

[00:15:44] don’t feel comfortable.

[00:15:45] Luke: because the minimizer can very easily turn it all off. And I’d say, this is the point, like, yes, [00:16:00] Paypal is, but if we are as an industry

[00:16:06] Jacqueline: and I’d say this is the point, like, yes, PayPal is, but if we are as an industry not doing this, right? And especially on the last archetype, it’s the keep out. That persona or that archetype just wants to find a good way of turning it all off very easily. And so, how are you facilitating, how easy is it to

[00:16:23] opt in

[00:16:24] and

[00:16:24] out, but that’s where the keep out, and if you get it wrong, the keep out is quite loud. So they will be

[00:16:28] loud. I don’t like this. I’m not, into it. While

[00:16:32] the other

[00:16:32] archetypes aren’t that loud.

[00:16:34] and just from a overall perspective of addressable market, why this is so important for product is that in the U S it varies, I believe it means 17 to 23 percent of the population in each bucket.

[00:16:46] So I just rounded up to 20, right? So if you don’t have a good product for the minimizer, you lost 20 percent of your addressable market, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

[00:16:56] Luke: the usage patterns for these cohorts is very different, [00:17:00] right? Like, I mean, like, we see it too with Brave. our lead users, the minimal folks are always like, how can I just get you to show me just I don’t even want to see the URL bar anymore, you know, like it’s like that minimal, but you’re like, okay, but like these things have features and useful, right?

[00:17:14] Like, but I think how, when you’re talking ethos and kind of broader view and community, right? We’re at the summit here. Like PayPal research kind of working with the bigger academic community? Are you guys getting involved on that front at all? Cause one thing I’ve seen that’s been surprising to me is just like how much.

[00:17:30] Like, the academic community’s kind of been outreaching to businesses, or, or, or, at least with the, with the research front, right?

[00:17:35] in your work at PayPal, have you done anything specific with any, like, academic or,you know, students that are, working in the AI space that you can share?

[00:17:43] Jacqueline: Yeah, so I was invited to talk at this class at Kellogg around mindful product management as well, and it really resonated because students do want to go into this industry and they do want to build great products there. but again, there aren’t great guidelines written

[00:17:56] around that you have the regulatory stuff, which is [00:18:00] very important, but how to succeed, you only have a

[00:18:03] guideline of what you

[00:18:04] can’t do, not what you should do,

[00:18:05] And

[00:18:06] so, I think. Not only me, we need more leaders in the space that are going into the academic world to pass this on.

[00:18:13] And of

[00:18:14] course, there’s all the research stuff that happens. But that’s more on the

[00:18:17] technology development. more interested on the technology application in the right way.

[00:18:23] Luke: Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. what should we look for? You mentioned the privacy portal earlier. Like, is most of the transparency on this going to be kind of from that informative side, from your point of view, or are there steps in the product journey that you’re going to share with the user?

[00:18:39] Like, how are you thinking about that transparency piece from the product perspective with

[00:18:44] Jacqueline: I think it will depend on the product you’re building. But consumers in general, they are those that are already using these products already have a framework. I love

[00:18:54] again the Apple share my location every time I’m using this app or share all the time or ask me [00:19:00] every time that starts educating the consumer.

[00:19:02] And so just think through the multiple products that we’re developing, how we’re going to be that transparent and give that

[00:19:09] clarity to consumers, right? And that is already becoming the best practice in the industry. So it’s really. Up to us to work backwards on each use case and figure out what the right thing is.

[00:19:20] Luke: that our users could use around kind of thoughtful use in, determining whether, you know, AI products trustworthy with their data like. It’s beyond PayPal, but just kind of, you know, everyday use, kind of.

[00:19:32] Jacqueline: Yeah, I think

[00:19:33] there needs to be a literacy around how my data is being used. Do I understand, and even if I care,

[00:19:38] right? So I think the first step

[00:19:40] is how much do I care?

[00:19:42] and what I find is that if the utility of products are clear, consumers don’t care that much because it’s clear and they trust your brand and they know that you’re doing the right thing.

[00:19:50] So looking for that responsibility is part of your culture, looking for good product management and mindfulness and hopefully not [00:20:00] doing things right because the regulator told you, you do it right because it’s the right thing to do. And I think that is that transpires to the consumers. they, they start picking it up.

[00:20:08] Maybe those early adopters are a little bit more,out there to go see what’s next. And don’t look that much

[00:20:14] for those things. They really want to. Find the next utility that they’re going to get out of it. but the other archetypes tend to already know where they are across this journey and look for the right things.

[00:20:25] but if they, if you don’t yet, I invite everyone to then think through where do I fit and how do I want to navigate this and, push, push the industry to do mindful product management, to do the right things. If you don’t understand explainability is a game changer. Big part of it. And if it’s

[00:20:41] not being explained enough, we just need to push people there.

[00:20:44] Luke: don’t understand explainability is a big of it and it’s not being [00:21:00] explained. They might just be kind of starting out with it. Are there any, anything like any, uh, if I only knew then what I know now kind of moment, you know, as being somebody that’s kind of leading in the space.

[00:21:12] Jacqueline: I think the, that product market fit is the key thing to think through. also that

[00:21:18] people

[00:21:19] are working with the best of intentions and it is up for us to think through, are there any unconscious biases that we should be preventing or unwanted biases as a team. Does this, this what I’m building align with the mission of the brand I’m working for, right?

[00:21:34] And, in general also just, use a lot of products. And test it out. And you, you, we, we as users are the best product managers. Cause we start finding, what we like, what doesn’t work, what works well. But, be mindful of not only thinking through your own archetypes.

[00:21:52] So, I always push my teams through, okay, in market

[00:21:55] research, how does archetype all in look like?

[00:21:59] How do they feel [00:22:00] and experiment this product? Are they happy? How happy are they? How’s the minimizer feeling? How happy are they? so, so that we can work backwards from that addressable market and understand that we are delivering the experiences there. but, so I think it’s just that part of, product management is there.

[00:22:17] How to use it for AI. yeah.

[00:22:28] So I’ll go a little bit in the theory here, and I’ll go back to my economics class when I was in business school.

[00:22:35] I had this great professor, and

[00:22:36] he kept on saying how

[00:22:38] it’s important

[00:22:39] as we go into the world, to think through if we want to be inhabitants of this world or if we want to be citizens. And inhabitants of this world are those people that walk around and really get everything they can get out of the ecosystem.

[00:22:53] So if they walk down the street and they see an apple tree, they’re going to get it. Take an apple. They’re going to eat it up and throw it away. [00:23:00] And then there’s the other people that are citizens. The citizens will love that there’s a tree of apples in the street. They’re going to get that apple, they’re going to eat it, and they’re going to plant the seed for the next generation to have apples. And just think through how to contribute to the community. And so I think that’s my main point for people. how can you be a citizen in this world, not an inhabitant? And I found that by creating great products.

[00:23:24] Luke: That’s fantastic. No, I can’t think of a better note to end on. where can people follow you online or, or catch up with what the latest of what you all are doing?

[00:23:31] Jacqueline: Yeah, I think on LinkedIn, that’s for me and for PayPal, we’re doing quite a few, announcements out there. There’s our LinkedIn pages, our own, yeah, our own media.

[00:23:41] Luke: We’ll make sure to include that in the show notes too. Well, thank you so much Jacqueline for coming in and letting us know about what you’re doing at PayPal and, and yeah, learning how to be better citizens.

[00:23:49] Jacqueline: Thank

[00:23:49] you so

[00:23:50] much.

[00:23:50] It was really nice to meet you guys.

[00:23:51] Luke: great one. Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist podcast.

[00:23:56] To never miss an episode, make sure you hit follow in your podcast app. If [00:24:00] you haven’t already made the switch to the Brave browser, you can download it for free today at brave. com. And start using Brave Search, which enables you to search the web privately. Brave also shields you from the ads, trackers, and other creepy stuff following you across the web.