[00:00:00] Luke: From privacy concerns to limitless potential, AI is rapidly impacting our evolving society. In this new season of the Brave Technologist podcast, we’re demystifying artificial intelligence, challenging the status quo, and empowering everyday people to embrace the digital revolution. I’m your host, Luke Maltz, VP of Business Operations at Brave Software.

[00:00:21] Makers of the privacy respecting Brave browser and search engine, now powering AI with the Brave Search API. You’re listening to a new episode of The Brave Technologist, and this one features Kyle Den Hartog, who is a security engineer at Brave helping to promote a world where the web can be more private and secure for everyone.

[00:00:39] With a background in security and cryptography, this has taken him through domain verticals, such as digital identity, web three, and now work on browsers here at Brave. His long term focus remains on improving our symbiotic relationship with technology, which is where you’ll find him diving head first into active, like minded communities and embrace these topics.

[00:00:55] In this episode, we discussed emerging use cases for crypto and privacy [00:01:00] implications, digital identity in the blockchain, wallet and web standards, and how the browser can be effective at powering web three. And now for this week’s episode of The Brave Technologist. Kyle, man, welcome to The Brave Technologist.

[00:01:17] How are you doing today? Doing good. How are you? Good, man. Looking forward to this one. Let’s give the folks a little bit of backstory on you. How did you get into the field of Web3 and security, and what brought you to Brave?

[00:01:29] Kyle: Yeah, yeah. So I guess probably the condensed version is that originally in university, I was working on a project of how do we get rid of passwords and I was trying to do effectively like a startup idea of sorts.

[00:01:42] And in doing that, I never ended up like pursuing in any sort of way. But when I presented a topic on that for, uh. A startup competition, one of the judges was actually a penetration testing consulting firm. He was starting up and so ended up meeting him through that. And that kind of took me down the rabbit hole of [00:02:00] security and ended up taking a class on that when I was still in college.

[00:02:03] And yeah, my professor ended up asking me a really interesting question, which is, um, you know, how do you do digital identity on the blockchain? And so that’s kind of what sent me down the path of Digital identity and kind of the browser space, um, was through working on standards and, and that sort of space.

[00:02:20] Cause I went to a conference and kind of attended in that sort of way. So that’s how I ended up kind of working in standard space for the past five years or so. And in doing that, that kind of brought me into how do browsers get developed. And so about two years ago, I was looking at some different job options and saw that Brave was hiring.

[00:02:38] And an old friend of mine actually, Worked here. So I sent a message to him and said, Hey, I see you guys are hiring for that position. Yeah. Ended up with Brave doing that and just kind of love the web three security stuff and, and kind of the standard space because of that, because it was kind of just natural and, and, uh, progression going along.

[00:02:57] So.

[00:02:58] Luke: What brought you to the blockchain space? [00:03:00] Was it kind of an intro through the project you mentioned? Or were you following it along from beforehand? And what kind of is fascinating to you about it?

[00:03:09] Kyle: Yeah, so the blockchain space, yeah, it actually came from, you know, my, my professor asking me that question of like, how do you build a digital identity system on the blockchain?

[00:03:16] And so I wrote a research paper actually for that class on the topic and built off of the concept of the framework to replace passwords. I’d built kind of a concept of the framework of building identity systems on the internet was the culmination of the research project. And in looking through that, I kind of broke down different digital identity systems we had today, how centralized they were, how do we move to a more decentralized approach and kind of approach it in that sort of way.

[00:03:44] And that was kind of the culmination of like heading in that sort of direction was essentially writing that research paper. It also just so happened that at that time, when I was still in university, I was trying to figure out how to manage my own personal money. And so in order to set up a savings account, I actually ended [00:04:00] up buying Bitcoin on Coinbase.

[00:04:02] And then I remember going on vacation. I think I had about a thousand saved up to go on a trip after I finished college. And it ended up like when I was on vacation, um, it jumped about 15X. So I ended up walking away with about 10, 000. 15, 000 on that time, you know, just by accident. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, let’s figure out what this stuff is.

[00:04:20] So

[00:04:23] Luke: that’s awesome. That’s awesome. You kind of dive into a bit about these like identity systems, you know, maybe we can unpack that a little bit for people because one thing from the privacy side of things, right? Like a lot of what we try to do is limit how much personal information or Fires are exposed by our users.

[00:04:42] But like what makes up an identity system online?

[00:04:47] Kyle: So in layman’s terms, there’s a few different ways that you can approach it. And I think also there’s a, a breakdown in terms of whether or not you should approach it in terms of philosophical or functional is a framework that I’ve heard [00:05:00] described by Joe Andrew, who’s in the space quite a bit.

[00:05:03] And so within technical systems, We tend to focus on the functional identity aspects and there’s different frameworks in terms of how you can break that down as well. The primary one that’s most often use is you effectively have an identifier of sorts, which for most people is tends to be an email, maybe it’s a username, and then you have attributes that describe the person.

[00:05:24] And so that’s the formation. And so that’s considered a attribute based identity system of sorts. And so an example of an attribute might be, you know, your age, your birthday, your name, or even if we’re talking in more pseudonymous terms, you know, which token do you own that can be an attribute within the web 3 system?

[00:05:43] So kind of a very rudimentary functional. Identity system within the blockchain is actually your account, which is your public key is your identifier, but then all the assets that you actually own and can see on the blockchain explorer are attributes about your account. And so you form this [00:06:00] kind of rudimentary identity system along the way, even though we don’t tend to think of it as like.

[00:06:05] An identity system that I can go use and in more practical terms in a lot of cases.

[00:06:10] Luke: Yeah, I know. That’s a really good way of kind of putting it together. Like, I don’t think people really think about that. Your, your address is kind of like your profile, right? Like in a way, I mean, obviously that opens up a whole other can of worms around privacy.

[00:06:24] Where do these things converge and conflict, I guess, in your work here at Brave. And how are you thinking about. Kind of the current state of digital identity and the blockchain being public and you know, this mission we have of trying to keep users privacy preserved online. It sounds at odds with itself a little bit in a way.

[00:06:45] What’s your take on that?

[00:06:46] Kyle: I guess probably, uh, to take a step back, I used to think that privacy needed to be built in by default from the very beginning, I think you can add it in over time. I’m becoming more convinced of that approach. And I think we’ve kind of [00:07:00] already seen that with the likes of how tornado catch, how to approach it.

[00:07:04] Obviously, there’s some, you know, Controversial aspects of it, but the way in which they approach the system kind of showed that we can layer privacy on top, which is what I find very interesting about kind of how do we approach sort of privacy on the blockchain where we’re at today, though, I feel like.

[00:07:21] We’re severely lacking is probably the best way to describe it as much as like there are other fintech type systems that like to show that it’s possible for let’s make a social feed of sorts of transactions. We make. I don’t think the Venmo model of everybody can see everything about who you are is really what we actually want.

[00:07:43] Nor do I think it’s actually very functional. To break it down. As I’ve heard somebody describe Bitcoin is kind of like a Twitter feed for my bank account. And, you know, when you’re talking about, businesses who are trying to transact and they’re operating in highly competitive environments, [00:08:00] privacy is not just about who can hide my information from it’s a competitive advantage.

[00:08:05] Knowing who your competitors are working with and who they’re transacting with is a competitive advantage. And so if all of that information is being published on a blockchain, it’s not a very functional financial system to be able to use in that sort of way. And so I think this is where. What we’re trying to do is figure out how can we layer that privacy on to be able to make this and much more functional financial system.

[00:08:28] And then how do we utilize that in order to address some of this aspects that aren’t addressed by the financial system today? Because in my mind, that’s effectively what we’re trying to solve here is we’re trying to look at the legacy systems that we already have. And recognize what are the good, what are the bad and rebuild it in such a way that we can improve it through the rebuilding of of the software

[00:08:52] Luke: along the way.

[00:08:54] I know you mentioned businesses a bit. What about the impact on individual users? I mean, it doesn’t seem like it’s [00:09:00] getting a ton of thought right now. I know you mentioned Venmo and I think there’s been some news around that recently where people didn’t even realize like that their info is public.

[00:09:09] Where’s your sense on public awareness around this? And, you know, kind of protecting the user, how do you balance that with what we’re trying to do at Brave, where every browser has like a self custodial wallet, right? And we’re trying to kind of have this challenge of making these new technologies, whether it’s AI or, you know, web three accessible and user first, right?

[00:09:31] But also trying to look out for the user. When they haven’t even transacted yet, right? Like, I don’t know. Maybe it seems like a kind of loaded question, but I’m just really curious because it is kind of one of those things I grapple with personally here quite often, but I’d love to get your thoughts on it.

[00:09:45] Kyle: So I guess from a personal perspective, you have to look at the threat model slightly differently. And so I think this is where you have to frame it in a slightly different way. If you’re trying to hide your transactions from the government in order to avoid taxes, That’s [00:10:00] a completely different threat model than if you’re trying to hide your transactions from corporate surveillance so that they can serve you different ads and build behavioral profiles on you to target you in more personalized ways.

[00:10:12] So I think this is where you kind of have to approach it. And that’s sort of like different sort of threat model of who are you actually trying to solve for? There are people who they’re in adversarial countries where they do need to hide their transactions. From their government, because, you know, it’s been banned for some sort of reason, but it’s the only way that they’re able to transact.

[00:10:30] But there’s also scenarios where it’s like, you need to be able to pay your taxes and be able to, to make that a little bit easier. Um, and I think this is kind of the headache that we have within the system today is that like, you know, I’m more than willing to pay my taxes, but how to do it is actually even more difficult and stuff like that.

[00:10:47] So building those sorts of systems of like. Defining what your threat model is, I think is the first question. And then once you have your threat model, being able to figure out how do you iterate on it. So a great example, [00:11:00] because it’s, it’s kind of a lower hanging fruit is how do we approach privacy from corporate surveillance?

[00:11:05] Like, this is something we like to do within the browser today. Most of what we’re doing with shields is actually just trying to block trackers. And so it’s one of those things where. Effectively, the way that we’re trying to do this is we’re trying to prevent people from being tracked on the web, but then when you show up at a website and they ask you for your wallet address, and it’s the same wallet address every single time, effectively, what’s happening there is we’re reinventing cookies through the web three space, and by reinventing them, we’re actually making it very easy for companies to go back through and see not only cookies, but also, uh, What websites do you show up that, but we can start to build behavioral profiles of how do you actually spend your money, which is what they care about most because if they can understand, are you a conservative spender?

[00:11:50] Are you an impulsive spender and be able to build these sorts of profiles based upon this information? Because they can see it on chain. Then they can figure out how to target you just by, you know, [00:12:00] airdropping you a message or an NFT as like a, here’s a 15 percent coupon. And effectively what we’ve done is we’ve gone and reinvented corporate surveillance, even though on the web two side of things, we’re actually trying to actively work to try and resolve these things.

[00:12:14] And so there’s kind of this discrepancy between those two today that I look at it as the space as a whole needs to be looking at, If this is where web 2 is, this is where web 3 needs to solve this problem. That is our competitive advantage is to figure out how do we build more privacy preserving ways to transact, but doing it in such a way that, you know, we’re still accruing value for the users, but also making a system that, takes into account.

[00:12:41] You know, how does advertising work and how do we monetize the web in those sorts of way?

[00:12:46] Luke: Yeah. Do you see when you look at the current landscape of whether it’s protocols or tools or offerings out there, do you see any out there that are addressing this problem sufficiently? I think because The main reason I’m asking [00:13:00] is there are several different, you know, these Web3 commerce rails where you can start to buy your coffee, right, with crypto are hitting the market now.

[00:13:10] And they’re not mass scale, but they are, especially in developing countries, right? You’ve got more and more people using crypto for buying groceries and other stuff. Are there solutions out there people can use today? Or is it still so new or early that we haven’t found the right tooling for that yet?

[00:13:29] Kyle: I think there are solutions that already exist.

[00:13:31] I know that there’s like one that I was looking at recently was Radom. Um, as an example, I mean, there’s Coinbase pay as well. There’s definitely solutions that exist. I remember buying a PC back in 2017 with, you know, the crypto money that I’d made. Um, I bought a PC on Newegg at the time. And the way that that worked was very simple.

[00:13:48] I sent some, some Bitcoin to them to a specific address that they had and it was a unique address at the time. And so it was a very rudimentary e commerce system that worked, but I [00:14:00] do think by and large, we haven’t really thought about this use case. There are people working on it, but it’s like, it is a very dominant use case.

[00:14:07] You know, there’s billions, if not trillions of dollars transacted through e commerce today. And if we can make that system more efficient, like that is a perfect use case to try and capture. And I was reading, I think yesterday. Visa is actually being considered, uh, under an antitrust case because of a monopoly in terms of basically, uh, building a transaction network that they’ve, they’ve monopolized.

[00:14:31] Well, why can’t we use these blockchain systems to try and go after this as a competitive market to be able to charge cheaper fees than what they’re doing? Because we don’t need to middleman the system. You know, it’s a market based approach in order to approach that in that sort of way. So. I think that’s one half of it.

[00:14:46] The other half that, you know, has kind of been memed out for quite a while is how do we build better UX? You know, within the e commerce space, this has been a long standing conversation it’s been worked on for almost a decade of how do you get down to a [00:15:00] one click checkout approach? Many people have tried to reinvent this in many different ways.

[00:15:04] And it’s something where I think the paradigms of which, how we’ve designed Wallets actually affect our ability to be able to approach these problems in a way that’s suboptimal. So as a description of this, today when I show up at a website, the first thing they do is they ask me for my address, then they go scan the blockchain to figure out how many assets I have, and then they try and build some sort of application logic around that.

[00:15:28] So maybe it’s, I want to go swap tokens or something like that. However, if I’m doing an e commerce system, I don’t need to ask for your address. I just need to tell you the amount that I want paid and where I want you to pay it into. And once I’ve verified on the blockchain that that’s been paid at that point in time, I’m able to do it.

[00:15:44] So the way that I. Thought about this is that the way in which we design RPC calls to the wallet is actually limiting our ability to be able to build better UX is because the way in which we’ve designed the patterns of [00:16:00] usage between the wallet. And so this is where I look at it is, if you want to improve UX, the answer isn’t improved apps, it’s figure out how to design better interoperable RPC calls on the wallet side and be able to build that sort of platform of sorts along the way.

[00:16:15] That’s what worked for web browsers in the past, and I think it’s what will work for the Web3 space as well.

[00:16:20] Luke: That’s awesome. Yeah, well, and kind of a follow on to that too, are there solutions out there that come to mind or is it remaining to be built as to like how we can protect the user’s privacy with those transactions to avoid them getting surveilled for buying that coffee or whatever?

[00:16:38] Kyle: I definitely think it’s not a technical problem. I’ve seen many different solutions along the way. I think Railgun was working on this to a pretty good degree. Monero from 2017 was trying to address it. Zcash is trying to address it as well. You know, there’s a lot of technical solutions that are out there.

[00:16:54] Realistically, the problem is regulatory. And that’s something that we, you know, we have to recognize is that [00:17:00] with where the regulations have gone with international policy, where we’ve effectively tried to turn the financial system into a weapon in order to enforce sanctions, they recognize that this sort of additional system where they’re not able to track and control the different financial transactions that occur and surveil them becomes a risk to the U.

[00:17:22] S. dollar. And that sort of risk actually Presents a problem in terms of being able to enforce sanctions and being able to exert a foreign policy goal onto other countries in a way that is able to actually achieve it. And so I think effectively, what I’m trying to summarize here and say is, I don’t think it’s a technical problem.

[00:17:43] I think technically we’ve solved it. We’ve done a lot of cool work with zero knowledge proofs and stuff like that. I think it’s a regulatory problem from 2 positions of. Governments want to see what we’re transacting with because there, you know, there’s legitimate reasons why they’re trying to do it.

[00:17:58] They’re trying to prevent [00:18:00] terrorist financing and different sorts of reasons in that sort of way. But, you know, they’ve decided to use the financial system as kind of the stopgap solution for good investigative work in terms of determining who are performing actions that they don’t agree with. And. And going in that direction, I think the second side of it is kind of the taxation problem where it’s like every transaction is considered a taxable event and there’s capital gains.

[00:18:24] Well, I don’t have to do that when I go buy a coffee with my visa card today. That’s not a taxable event of sorts. It was taxed when I first received my income and I don’t really care, you know, when I’m going to exchange the currency from USD to British pounds or something like that. So in that sort of way.

[00:18:42] I’d effectively describe the problem as not technical, but rather regulatory. And it’s something that we need better clarity on, not only within the United States, but also more globally.

[00:18:53] Luke: No, that’s great. We were talking about wallets, or you were speaking about wallets a minute ago. I know that one thing you’ve worked on a lot at Brave [00:19:00] is how Brave can be impactful as part of a broader wallet standards effort.

[00:19:05] Web 3 is very different from Web 2 in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways, it’s also kind of how the web originated, right, where it’s very wild west in the beginning, and then it gets more organized. How is things going on that front? Is there like a formal standard effort around wallets? What’s the state of the state on that front?

[00:19:24] Kyle: I think it depends on what sort of projects you’re working on. So for example, if you’re working within a core protocol, such as like the Ethereum protocol or the Solana protocol, I think it’s pretty well understood that standards are necessary because you have to achieve consensus. Like if one node decides to go implement something different than everybody else and it breaks consensus, well, you’ve effectively.

[00:19:48] So in that sort of level, it’s kind of quite a mature ecosystem and, and within a theorem, for example, there’s the theorem core devs who have figured out how to operate in this sort of way pretty well. In fact, what I’ve seen at [00:20:00] times is actually kind of standards uses weapon of sorts to beat each other over the head of like, you’re not aligned enough.

[00:20:07] And. I don’t think that’s necessarily the best direction to see it done, but it’s also I’m, I’m quibbling at, you know, kind of what’s the most effective technique in order to progress and move projects forward. So, in that sort of way, I think there are effective standardizations that are occurring and processes that are working.

[00:20:26] I think where things are lacking is kind of on the wallet side of things. So part of this is just due to the competitive natures of how different chains and different protocols view each other today. We’re still kind of in the early stages of which protocols are going to dominate. And I don’t mean dominate in like a, you know, sort of like.

[00:20:46] When out scenario, all or nothing type type thing, but rather it’s one of those things where it will form kind of a long tail curves. There’s going to be, you know, maybe a few protocols that do the majority of transactions. And then there’s going to be a long tail of [00:21:00] other protocols that are going to continue to do transactions, but they might not solve the problem in the same way.

[00:21:06] And so because of that, uh, what it means is that we have a lot of redundancy in the way that we approach a problem. So say, for example, the EIP 6963, we effectively were doing a lot of the same things as what Solana had already built with the wallet standard for Solana, but Solana built it for their own ecosystem and for their wallets that they had transacting in that sort of cases.

[00:21:28] And what was interesting about it was I believe it was phantom and us were the two that were working on this from a perspective of, well, we actually support both Ethereum and Solana. So, you know, we like the idea of being able to just reuse the same standard over again, but then you run into kind of the nitty gritty technical details that, you know, also becomes a bit of the human layer.

[00:21:51] Of like, you know, in order to achieve consensus, you have to figure out how to negotiate and compromise and stuff like that. And so we didn’t end up reusing it, but from a technical [00:22:00] architectural standpoint, it’s very, very similar. And, you know, I believe I even quoted this when I was helping author the specification for six, nine, six, three was basically, we use it as prior art.

[00:22:11] We use the wallet standard as prior art. And the reason for that is because. From a technical perspective itself, the problem we wish we could have made some modifications to the salon while it’s standard in order to just make it the same. And I think that’s something that we will get to in the future.

[00:22:26] You know, I’ve already been cross communicating with some of the people who work on the salon side of things. Some of the people who work on the theorem side of things. And I think we all want the same thing. But it’s kind of the nature of standards that when you’re operating in a competitive environment, but also trying to collaborate, it creates this kind of weird adversarial environment where you have to first build trust at the people layer.

[00:22:47] And then once you’ve built that trust up over time, then your technical solutions can start to fall together. And so I think that’s kind of what we need from the wallet side of things is that we have to recognize that. The wallet is [00:23:00] operating in kind of a chain agnostic way, and the only way in which we’re going to get standards is to not tie the wallet itself to a particular chain, but instead recognize that it’s a individual user agent that operates on behalf of the user in order to interact with blockchains rather than leaking the abstractions of the blockchain itself into the wallet and forcing them to kind of diverge because the application logic between the different consensus protocols is slightly different.

[00:23:28] Luke: Interesting, interesting. Well, and to kind of back it up even more a little bit, Brave’s browser, Web3 is in the browser. Brave’s got a wallet. From our kind of unique perspective as that window to the web as a browser, uh, with Web3, what are ways that you see or that you’re working on where Brave can be useful in this?

[00:23:50] We can, we can better integrate Web3 use and functionality into the browser with wallets and more broadly.

[00:23:57] Kyle: Yeah, so I think the very obvious one that I’ve [00:24:00] seen is key management within the Ethereum space. I’ve seen everybody trying to use past keys and WebAuthn and the browser APIs for that. The semantics of how past keys and WebAuthn were designed is not very well architected to be reused in the blockchain space based upon my understanding of it and knowing Kind of the intent and the design and the direction of where each project is going.

[00:24:22] So what I’ve looked at is how do we go about approaching this in a different sort of way? And I guess the first question we should ask is why seed raises today suck. We all know it. And so, you know, what is a key management solution that has worked pretty well? Well, if you look to pass keys, the way in which they’ve architected, the system actually works very well, where the device manages the keys for you, rather than I need to memorize the keys.

[00:24:46] And so this is where I’ve looked at it. I’ve gone, okay, what sort of stuff already exists in the crypto space in order to address this? And this is where web crypto has actually done an excellent job of designing these sorts of API’s [00:25:00] to make it kind of an agnostic key key management solution. The problem is.

[00:25:05] It hasn’t actually attached itself back down to the hardware layer. Um, and they did consider it at the time, but they saw privacy concerns in the way in which they were looking at designing the API. So it, you know, in classic fashion, when you’re trying to achieve consensus, sometimes the answer is to just leave it for the next time that you decide to work on something.

[00:25:25] So they opted against designing against that. And that’s kind of the reason everybody’s moved in the direction of past keys and WebAuthn API is because it’s the only way that you can actually do hardware backed crypto so that you can do key management from the perspective of recovering the keys and, you know, signing and those sorts of events.

[00:25:44] So to answer your question with that, How can the browsers assist? I think that’s really what we should be doing is we should be assisting on the key management layer. So in speaking with kind of Dan Finlay and and others at the MetaMask team and why they’re approaching snaps in the way they [00:26:00] are, it’s to effectively allow for a more diverse population of developers to be able to contribute to what’s happening on the wallet layer, because from their perspective, they see themselves as effectively blocking the development of the Web3 ecosystem.

[00:26:15] Tons of people have come to them asking for MetaMask to support some sort of specific RPC service or do some sort of new capability, and they just can’t get to every single project, and it’s the same problem that you face in the browsers. There’s fewer browser engineers than there are site developers.

[00:26:31] And so the way in which they’re approaching snaps is to effectively try and make this more agnostic so that you can create an extension architecture for gaps to be able to build their own wallet logic and be able to plug that into the wallet itself well in the same way as you have extensions for the browser itself that’s kind of the same architecture they’re trying to use for the wallet and what I’m seeing is that.

[00:26:56] We should actually be doing that same thing where we push key management down [00:27:00] further into the browser layer and into the operating system layer because it’s already effectively got all of this application logic built into it. So why do this, I think, would be the next question that comes about with this.

[00:27:12] The answer is because the key management layer is actually where all the security lies. If you’re doing all the parsing at the wallet layer and doing kind of the application logic at the application and site layer by pushing that key management down further and moving to a lower, lower level API, you’re effectively solving the problem of.

[00:27:31] How do we approach key syncing? How do we approach migration? How do we approach key recovery? And we’re pushing it down to a very generic layer so that we actually can reuse this for WebAuthn, reuse this for passkeys, reuse this for digital wallets and reuse this for cryptocurrency wallets as well. And so that’s kind of the way that I’m seeing it.

[00:27:51] Um, and trying to think about it is effectively trying to. Build on and extend the web crypto API to make this a little bit easier for all the [00:28:00] wallets as a whole so that we can get rid of seed phrases, because that’s going to be the next big step, I think, in terms of improving security overall in this space.

[00:28:09] Luke: And as you aptly put, uh, seed phrases suck. So it’s, uh, it is one of those things where You have all of this power with self custody, um, as a user, like with an agency and all of that, but, um, if you lose that damn seed phrase, it’s all bad news, right? Well, uh, Kyle, man, you’ve been super gracious with your time today.

[00:28:29] Um, was there anything we didn’t cover here that you want the audience to know about, whether it’s stuff you’re working on or just things in general that you want to inform them on?

[00:28:37] Kyle: Not at this point. Um, I think things will come to mind over time. Constantly pondering stuff. So where my head’s at will be different today as it is tomorrow.

[00:28:47] And kind of the topics that are brought up are, are exactly that. So I don’t think there’s anything specific that I have, I have in my head.

[00:28:54] Luke: No, that’s great, man. Uh, uh, yeah, I think we covered a ton of ground today too. So it’s fantastic. Um, where can people find, [00:29:00] uh, find you online if they want to follow along with, um, some of the standards work or just things in general that you’re posting out there?

[00:29:06] Kyle: Twitter’s a good spot. I don’t, uh, post as much there. I do occasionally write blog posts, but Don’t post as much. Um, I try to operate a bit more privately, so I guess that’s probably the best thing is reach out to me on Twitter and I prefer to just kind of have individual conversations and kind of have the human side of things of what’s, what’s converse and stuff like that.

[00:29:27] So, you know, reach out on, on Twitter, DM me and, you know, let’s have an actual conversation. I’m not really looking to broadcast my views to the world around primarily just because I I don’t think it’s the best way to kind of iterate. You know, there are times where I’m wrong and stuff like that as well.

[00:29:41] So, you know, the way I see it is because I’m wrong. It’s one of those things where the best way to, to iterate a conversation and, and find the best solution is actually through conversation rather than just professing onto, you know, a broadcast of sorts.

[00:29:57] Luke: Yeah, yeah, no worries. Sounds great. We’ll be sure to link that in the [00:30:00] show notes.

[00:30:00] And, uh, yeah, thanks again for coming on today. Um, we’d love to have you back to, um, as you progress on this work and, uh, and check back in on things and have some broader discussions too. But, uh, thanks again, Kyle. Really appreciate it, man.

[00:30:12] Kyle: Sounds good. Thank you.

[00:30:14] Luke: Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist podcast.

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