[00:00:00] Luke: From privacy concerns to limitless potential, AI is rapidly impacting our evolving society. In this new season of the Brave Technologist podcast, we’re demystifying artificial intelligence, challenging the status quo, and empowering everyday people to embrace the digital revolution. I’m your host, Luke Malks, VP of Business Operations at Brave Software, makers of the privacy respecting Brave browser and search engine, now powering AI with the Brave Search API.

[00:00:29] You’re listening to a new episode of the Brave Technologist. This one features Luca Netz, a 25 year old entrepreneur with a notable career in tech and e commerce. After honing his skills in direct to consumer sales at Ring, he launched his own successful e commerce venture. Today, Luca is the CEO of PudgyPenguins, a cutting edge IT company that integrates innovative technology and creative content to redefine the digital landscape.

[00:00:49] In this episode, we discussed first edition collections and how that’s changed IP, Bridging the gap from on the client collectibles to offline products in big box retailers like Walmart. Advice [00:01:00] for young entrepreneurs who want to build businesses at the intersection of tech, creativity, and IP, and the abstract consumer L2, and how it will help scale consumer adoption.

[00:01:08] And now for this week’s episode of the Brave Technologist. Luca, welcome to the brave technologist. How are you doing today?

[00:01:18] Luca: Hey, I’m doing great. How are you doing?

[00:01:20] Luke: Doing well, doing well. I’ve been really looking forward to this. Tell us about a little bit about what you’re doing with Pudgy penguins and kind of the journey that got you here.

[00:01:29] Luca: Yeah. So Pudgy penguins is looking to accomplish two goals. I think the first goal we’re looking to accomplish is we want to become the face and the mascot for crypto, which I think we’re slowly but surely becoming and. I think that will kind of be concrete any day here for, I think, a majority of crypto users.

[00:01:45] And the other side of it is we want to be the face of penguins around the world. So when you think penguins, I want you to think pudgy penguins. And ultimately I think these two missions are driving to probably our bigger mission, which is a part of the igloos mission, which is like, how do we bring people on chain in a way that is not [00:02:00] predicated on price going up or price going down?

[00:02:02] That’s at least the purpose of pudgy. I think my story starts you know, it kind of grew up bouncing around guest bedroom to guest bedroom, home to home with my mom and my brother for about 10 years, settled down in Los Angeles when I was a teenager, dropped out of high school when I was 16 to help my mom pay the bills, got my first job in a tech startup called ring.

[00:02:19] When I was 18, I bought an online course that taught me how to sell things online. Within 12 months of watching that course I found product market fit on my, e commerce business and changed my life and the rest of the people around me is life. I then went to monetize social influence. So I built brands around creators.

[00:02:36] And then I went to become the CMO and second largest shareholder of North America’s fastest growing toy company, which is a company called gel blaster. And two and a half years ago, I bought the pudgy penguins for two and a half million bucks under this guise that we were going to build the next generation of brand, become crypto’s mascot and ultimately be the face of penguins around the world.

[00:02:54] So that’s the, the very, very, very short version. You’d be surprised, but the, the, the longer [00:03:00] version, it’s pretty detailed. That’s how we got here.

[00:03:03] Luke: That’s awesome. It’s kind of like the perfect mix to like, to do what you guys are doing. There’s some things that are, seem a little bit different, right? Like what the approach for pudgy, or maybe it just might, might seem different to the audience a little bit.

[00:03:15] We’ve seen projects kind of take their NFT and then do something else with that NFT. Like I’ve seen something like. Pudgy puzzles and things like that. Like maybe we can get a little bit into the weeds because a lot of people I feel they see an NFT and they think, okay, it’s just a JPEG that’s on a blockchain, right?

[00:03:31] But like, what is different about what you guys were doing on the IP side with Pudgy then that people might not necessarily be aware of?

[00:03:39] Luca: So the NFT mechanism is an alignment mechanism between brand and participants and basically early believer. So I think You know, I want the audience listening to, if you’re not familiar with NFTs, or maybe have a bad interpretation of NFTs as to kind of what transpired 3, 4 years ago, you know, this idea that NFTs are actually what I think digital [00:04:00] collectibles on steroids, which have a slew of pros that I think regular collectibles don’t.

[00:04:04] And so. From a traditional perspective, I mean, these collectibles have no spoofing issues, no authenticity issues, no friction when buying or selling, no insurance issues, no storage issues, you know, exactly how much of 1 there is. Like, there’s no room for misinterpretation. And so, for those reasons, I think that there’s better collectibles outside of the fact that you can’t physically touch it, but.

[00:04:22] You know, I would argue that wearing it as a profile picture is probably more impactful than being able to touch it, you know, in your bedroom or in your office. Right? And so that’s probably 1 side of the spectrum. The other side of the spectrum where things that get really exciting is this idea of alignment.

[00:04:35] And so, you know, naturally, I think 1st edition collectors are aligned with a brand success in a super meaningful way. And these are first edition collectibles that because they’re digital and because they’re, you know, have this awesome technology in this, in this way to kind of integrate into different parts of the ecosystem, you can kind of open up a lot of different doors.

[00:04:52] And so in one scenario, you can kind of open up the door and give people licensing rights and the ability to kind of create and leverage the IP on one side of the [00:05:00] spectrum. There’s this idea that you can actually build a brand quicker and better while other people are kind of building different facets of the brand and kind of marching into one direction.

[00:05:08] There’s another idea that, like, I can license the IP directly from holders themselves. Right. And so this idea that I’m making a toy and putting it into Walmart and Target, rather than you having to go make your own product, I will bring you in on the upside, depending on if I select your character or not.

[00:05:25] And then you can get a royalty and perpetuity. So this idea that, you know, it’s kind of a reinvention of the IP business. But this idea that first edition collectors and first edition believers can now participate in the success of a brand, I think is really exciting. And so it’s a reinvention right now.

[00:05:41] I think IP businesses are basically brand and consumer and with pudgy penguins, I think it’s the first time in the history of IP that you now have a new relationship, which is. Brand participant and then consumer and the participants are really the early believers, the first edition collectors in which you can identify, you know, through these profile pictures and these [00:06:00] digital JPEGs.

[00:06:01] Luke: Yeah, no, that’s fantastic. And I think that’s something that the Pudgy, like the community element of it, you guys have one of the most diehard communities in crypto. And it has this, like, the art’s right to where it appeals beyond just kind of the everyday, like, crypto degen, right? But like, you see it in how the community kind of supports the efforts of holders in the community when they’re trying to do these things.

[00:06:23] It’s something I’ve seen, like just, I mean, we’ve worked with like Andrew Forte, a bunch of other folks and, Drew and a bunch of people that are out there doing things and you see the community rally behind that, like that’s something that you don’t really see a lot of outside of crypto communities in general, and, and it’s a super cool thing to see.

[00:06:38] How do you, in your role, maintain a balance between creative and the tech side, or is there even a balance there? Like, how much are you guys, kind of, like, weighing where can we take this on the innovation side versus, what’s the next thing we’re going to do with the artwork,

[00:06:52] Luca: that kind of a balance?

[00:06:54] So me as like the CEO, I kind of, my tone of set the vision. And so I think it’s really important for us above all else. I told the team that’s like, I [00:07:00] don’t see a world where the NFT and the crypto side of the business fails and the IP succeeds, I think they’re either going to both succeed tremendously or they’re both going to fail miserably.

[00:07:08] So, so far you’ve seen tremendous success. in both sides, right? The NFT does really well. The other product lines do really well, you know, the product lines do really well, the NFT does really well. And so it’s been really symbiotic in that sense. So far it’s been proven true. On the other side of the spectrum, I think how we kind of look at this business is again, it’s held by Igloo.

[00:07:28] So Igloo is this holding company. Igloo contributes to a blockchain called Abstract and then owns Pudgy Penguins. And so the whole mission of Igloo, right, which is the holding company in which we kind of sit, Is to push on chain adoption. Like that is our mission above all else. And we actually believe IP is one of the best ways to do it because IP can be grown.

[00:07:46] It can be scaled. And ultimately, I think blockchain is super taboo and super intimidating. And there’s no better 1st touch point for somebody to get familiar with being on chain. Right. So I think like that, that is the root of what we’re trying to accomplish. [00:08:00] So it’s up to the rest of the team to figure out like the two different facets.

[00:08:03] Like, how does tech support the growth of the brand? And ultimately, you know, leverage the growth of the brand to make a positive blockchain experience. And obviously, it’s the responsibility of creative to make the most lovable product. you know, penguin that permeates through time and culture and through, you know, different groups of people in the best way possible.

[00:08:23] So I have really just set the vision and keep people on course. And, you know, I’ll be frank. I’ve got a team of rock stars rocking with me on this endeavor here for the last two and a half years. And they’re the ones that kind of put the put the pieces together to make sure that we’re kind of ebb and flowing in the right direction.

[00:08:37] But if you were to ask me again, like, it goes down to, I think, our core ethos, the igloo, like, if I were to pick the two, I’m going to pick the crypto one, the crypto and the blockchain and the technology side. I think it’s the gap that’s, that needs to be filled the most today. And so IP actually today is like on a cataclysmic downturn, meaning like no new IP has been.

[00:08:57] So you know this, this also remains true for ip, [00:09:00] but I think because we started in crypto, our origins are in crypto. Our responsibility and our loyalty is to this industry. though, I do think IP needs a saving grace just as much as I think crypto needs a saving grace, especially from a mass and a consumer perspective.

[00:09:13] If you were to put a, you know, give me an ultimatum, I’m going to pick the technology side, but obviously they’re symbiotic and it’s kind of like yin and yang and they, they both need a win. They both need to be no positive experiences for user to win.

[00:09:24] Luke: Totally. It has been anything like that you’ve seen that’s come from the community on the tech side where you’re like, Damn, I didn’t think about that.

[00:09:31] Or that was like a really interesting use case that we didn’t consider that we’re going to look further into. Like how much of this stuff is coming like organically up from the community and how much versus how much of this is coming from your guy from Igloo itself.

[00:09:43] Luca: So my job is to really harness the hive mind that is the community and really put the muscle behind it.

[00:09:49] So. You know, our whole walmart and target toys that you can go buy now actually all come with the QR code when you scan that QR code, you input an email on the password. You’re given a custody wallet that you’re [00:10:00] then asked to redeem 3 to 5 nfts through a gas experience. That whole flow and conceptualization of that idea was done.

[00:10:07] What we call an inner igloo, which is our biweekly conversations that we have that basically are you know, where we sync up between holders and myself and the rest of the team. And so that was a perfect example of like that gap being bridged and that not being conceptualized for my brain. Another one is OCAP games, which is making the pudgy penguins, TCG, think of like Hearthstone and magic, the gathering kind of like an online physical kind of merger.

[00:10:30] That’s a huge industry, a competitive industry, but the game is so fun. The product is so exciting. And so many of the holders are so passionate about that. We have a huge magic, the gathering and poker community within penguins. You know, things like that are super exciting. Obviously, you know, you mentioned pudgy puzzles and other people making products.

[00:10:45] Like if you go on Amazon, majority of those products you see on Amazon are community made. But specifically on the technology side, I think OCAP Games and what we did with Pudgy World are really two great examples.

[00:10:56] Luke: And just to zoom out a touch, because I think that, you know, a lot of the audience might [00:11:00] not necessarily be aware of like how some of this works.

[00:11:02] so when you say you guys have bi weekly calls, that involves like Igloo and then anybody that goes and buys and holds one of these NFTs, right? So like, they can have no affiliation with Igloo whatsoever other than being like part of this community, right?

[00:11:16] Luca: Yeah. So it’s a token gated chat. And again, it goes back to like this reinvention of IP where it’s like branded participant, right?

[00:11:22] You hold the NFT, you’re a participant, you can come up on stage. We have those conversations, you know exactly what I’m doing. And to be frank, like a lot of people like claim, they do things like this, but I think we’ve really set the bar and the North stars, like what it means to build with a group, because quite literally half of this company’s ideas has stemmed from those conversations.

[00:11:40] Like they probably are single handedly. One of the most meaningful web three crypto conversations that you can have every two weeks. It’s unparalleled the conversations, the ideas that have stemmed from that. So it quite literally is us leaning into this participation model.

[00:11:54] Luke: That’s one of the things I really wanted to kind of get the point across here too, because I feel like when you look at the tech [00:12:00] landscape, there’s a lot of like big tech world versus just a simple user, right?

[00:12:03] And a lot of times that relationship gets kind of weird. This is one of those things where you’re part of the community. You can really grow something new with it. And not only that, like. You guys give that direct access. Like there are not very many things like that in this world where you can actually like be part of a conversation, be giving value and have an influence on something like that.

[00:12:23] So, you know, something I hope that the audience here takes away, like we, we do this too with the back community where we have like these open calls every week. And I think that that’s something that like. There’s so much just noise around the crypto space that it’s one of those things that is really key to the crypto space is this, this idea of community and like direct engagement, but it gets not as much attention as it should, I think, but it’s super cool to see you guys are like.

[00:12:46] People are actually like building things on this. Like you guys are actually like getting into Walmart. How did that process work? Because I think you guys have really broken through in a way that, I mean, I’ve been in this space since 2016. It’s rare to see [00:13:00] something like what you guys have been able to do where you guys got into this like mega retailer with products that actually involve real world crypto utility for a broader audience.

[00:13:10] This is kind of like. The goal everybody talks about, but like you guys are actually doing it. So maybe you can like share a little bit about like kind of the genesis of that.

[00:13:17] Luca: Yeah, of course. So there’s really two compelling crypto native things about these products that are in these distributors. And I think they play into how we got there.

[00:13:25] I think the first one is every toy that you see that’s on shelf is actually licensed, a licensed NFT from a holder in which every time one of those toys sells, I get a royalty and perpetuity that gets paid out every January. So this is like a really beautiful story. This idea that like, Hey, I’m a first edition collector.

[00:13:41] I took your NFT, I licensed it from you, and now they’re getting royalty and perpetuity. Never been done before. First of its kind. Right? On the other side of it, you have this idea that was stemmed from this inner igloo, which is this pudgy world integration. Hey, when you buy this toy, you unlock these NFTs through this like really seamless web 2 style experience.

[00:13:59] And that [00:14:00] gives you, you know, ability to customize your forever Pudgy Penguin, et cetera. And so I think these two things are really innovative from like from a narrative and also a technology perspective. And when pitching Walmart, so Gel Blaster is one of Walmart’s best selling products, you know, for two years, basically, and that, that was my endeavor before Pudgy Penguins.

[00:14:17] And so I had a really great relationship with them, right? We came in. They didn’t take a chance on us. I told them like, hey, gel blasters can be the biggest, best thing ever. They took a chance, turned out to sell like, you know, 200 million worth of product in about two years there. They kind of believe what we had said when, when we came to them and said, Hey, look, like, this is the story that we’re trying to tell.

[00:14:34] And I want you to be at the forefront of this. Ultimately, they actually didn’t take the chance that I wanted them to take. And it wasn’t until we had like a huge success of Amazon that they realized like, look, there was really something special here. We sold out of Amazon product basically in two days.

[00:14:48] We were number one across all different categories there. And that’s when kind of the floodgates open. And ultimately, We were in a pallet program in quarter four, basically one of maybe six pallets [00:15:00] that are in like the middle of the store, probably the most prime real estate that any person can get and any consumer product good.

[00:15:07] We basically had 90 days to pull up to basically distribute 2000 pallets and 2000 Walmarts Walmarts, uh, with about like 400 units of each product on each pallet. We got that basically from purchase order to in their stores in 90 days. And the rest is history. I think we ended up selling out. Yeah, we sold like 80 percent of those units, which I think was like 800, 000 or 750, 000 units at the time.

[00:15:32] We ended up doing that in about two, two and a half months. They ended up doing a reorder. And by the time this airs, we’re gonna announce that we’re gonna be in Walmart through 2025. So I think the success is just continuously steamrolling through and that opened the door to Target and Hot Topic and Smiths and Big W and we’re at about 10,000 retail doors a day.

[00:15:52] Luke: Wow, that’s huge. I mean, especially given where market sentiments go and how, like, you’re doing all this while crypto’s [00:16:00] been kind of in a rough patch, too. You gave a really good high level on, like, kind of the flow, right, for that customer to go through when they buy it and QR code, all that stuff. How involved was Walmart in that process?

[00:16:11] Like, were they giving you guys feedback or were they, like, concerned at all or how is that part of the relationship

[00:16:16] Luca: managed? I ran the approval once. They trusted the process and they let us cook, man. I think that’s what I really respected about them. They were not micromanaging that process whatsoever.

[00:16:27] Luke: That’s fantastic. That’s awesome. I think this is just one of those things I wish more people heard about. Like, so I’m really stoked you’re here telling us about it. So, through 2025, it’s huge. All these new retailers, like, are there any other directions where the Penguins are going? What’s next for you guys?

[00:16:42] Luca: I think for us, it’s gaming movies and TV. I think that was like the next big cracks to be a franchise. And then that would be like from our web two perspective and from a web three perspective, it’s really leaning into, I think, you know, if you understand the pudgy penguin community. You would know that there isn’t three better communities in [00:17:00] crypto, you know, some of the brightest, most affluent, most powerful people in crypto, where this is their PFP, some of the nicest, you know, kindest people you know, where this is their PFP and it’s just like a army of diverse super penguins kind of marching in a direction.

[00:17:13] So from an ecosystem perspective, you know, we’re leveraging that to grow our blockchain. I think ultimately I want people to build. You know, the way that pudgy penguins built for the last 2. 5 years, but, you know, I want that to be aligned. I wanted to be ecosystem aligned. I wanted to benefit the ecosystem.

[00:17:27] I want to benefit the holders. And ultimately, that’s where abstract came in. And then from a Web 2 perspective, it’s movies, it’s TV, it’s partnerships, collaborations. And we pretty much got, I think one of the biggest headlines in crypto on the movie and TV side. I think we’ve got two gaming products, one in Pudgy World and one in Pudgy Party that were released in the next six months.

[00:17:47] Both of them, I think they’ll be blockbuster successes. And then we have some brand partnerships and collaborations that I think are going to blow everyone’s socks off. So I think between that little package. We’ve got a lot in the pipeline and a lot [00:18:00] for people to be excited about.

[00:18:01] Luke: That’s awesome. I got to ask too, where did the idea of the penguin come into play?

[00:18:06] Like how, how did that all kind of come to about, you just like penguins or where did it come from?

[00:18:10] Luca: Well, remember Luke, I bought Pudgy Penguins, so I was actually a disgruntled holder. So for those of you who are not familiar, It’s actually a really interesting story that I think is worth mentioning for 60 seconds.

[00:18:18] Yeah. Please

[00:18:19] Luke: break it down. I love this. I love this.

[00:18:21] Luca: Pudgy Penguins was one of the three NFT projects in 2021 that really kicked off the narrative around NFTs. Those three projects were CryptoPunks, Bored Apes, and Pudgy Penguins. Now Pudgy Penguins was started by a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds in their college dorm basement.

[00:18:37] They weren’t entrepreneurs. They had no business experience. They barely knew how to cook a steak medium rare. I mean, that’s, you know, they’re young guys. Don’t blame them. And while CryptoPunks and Bored Apes continue to do their thing, right? Go up in price. In this case, they were basically a straight shot to 100 Ethereum.

[00:18:53] You know, Pudgy Penguins, after the first two months of its hype, lost its pizzazz. Basically, the operational [00:19:00] negligence of these kids that were running it. I was a huge pudgy penguin holder and rather than complaining and doing all the things that I think most disgruntled holders do, I realized I could set up to the plate and put my money where my mouth is and show them how it’s done.

[00:19:13] And I also was looking at the success of board, ape and the success of crypto punks, and I thought to myself, well, there’s nothing there that I think we don’t have, and there’s nothing that I think they’re doing that we can’t, that I couldn’t do better. And so the the kind of deal came around where it was like, look, you know, four or five months after pudgy penguins conception.

[00:19:30] My bid for 750 Ethereum, which ended up closing about two and a half million dollars went through. I then bought the project basically three months after that bid got accepted. After that bid got accepted, basically a week later, the NFT and crypto market went into the worst bear market it’s seen. And in a very long time, black swan after black swan.

[00:19:51] And then we basically ever since that moment have been the highest performing NFT project. By an order of magnitude based on the things that we’ve kind of achieved. [00:20:00] So still a long ways to go. I believe that we’re going to take Pudgy Penguins further than any other NFT product has been in the past. But it’s gonna take some time and I got a lot more building to do so.

[00:20:09] Luke: So you guys basically bought out every NFT that was available, right? Like, is that kind of how that worked?

[00:20:14] Luca: No, we just bought the assets. We bought the trademark. We bought, we bought the contract addresses that like held the NFTs and got the royalties. But because all of the NFTs were sold to the public, basically all the NFTs were sold to the public.

[00:20:27] I maybe got, you know, 20 or 30 NFTs from the previous team.

[00:20:31] Luke: Awesome. Awesome. No, that’s cool. Is there any AI angles that you see around pudgy or anything like that? I’m just gonna, gotta ask, like you know, given how an AI is kind of like booming and everybody’s trying to put it everywhere.

[00:20:43] Luca: I had an idea, like a homework or helper.

[00:20:46] So this idea that you bought the penguin on the shelf of Walmart, scan the QR code, got your forever penguin, and then had like a homework or AI helper. The problem was, is like one of my guys said like, look, we’re not AI guys. And we wouldn’t even know where to start. [00:21:00] But this idea that there was a 0. 001 percent chance this toy went to go tell a kid to kill, kill themselves.

[00:21:06] Like the worst headline for us is like Walmart, removing everything off shelf and throwing it away. Because you know, our AI penguin told somebody to hurt himself. So we, we scratch that to the side, probably not for today. I know a bunch of really interesting AI projects around the pudgy penguin IP are being built on abstract, but other than that, nothing AI that we’re directly, directly you know, building.

[00:21:28] Luke: Really interesting perspective, because I think you guys are one of the few where you’re hitting that mass market ring in a different way. Like, have you guys seen, an inflow of new people into the space that maybe have bought this through Walmart and are now have the crypto bug, you know, so to speak?

[00:21:44] Are you guys seeing more and more new kind of people coming to the community as a result of some of this distribution?

[00:21:50] Luca: There’s been tons of stories, right? But there it’s important to note that I haven’t turned that lever on. So I believe conversion is a process, not an action. And so I’m a direct response [00:22:00] guy.

[00:22:00] So like intuitively, like that’s just naturally not true. I mean, technically, you know, conversion is an action, but I think for this business and kind of our approach, I’m not treating it like an action. I’m treating it like a process. Right now I want to be the most familiar, credible, and trusted character on the internet.

[00:22:17] And when that happens, then I can make the direct conversion to crypto user. Now people go and explore and they hear the story and when they take a deep dive into the brand, they find that, that origin. With or without me, you know, explaining it to them. So that’s always exciting. We’ve seen a ton of people come into the community based off of their own personal deep dive.

[00:22:37] But I think from our perspective, like, we haven’t turned the jets of like the brand really taking this huge user base of millions of people and converting them in. Because I don’t think it’s the right time. I think there’s a moment. There’s gonna be a moment in time where that time is right, but I don’t think that moment is now.

[00:22:53] Luke: Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it is interesting. I love here because like, in a lot of ways, Braves in [00:23:00] kind of a similar place where, you know, we have a product that doesn’t necessarily like there’s a crypto cohort of users using it. Sure. But You’re also dealing with like your neighbor or somebody else that that is using it and kind of introducing them and certain stages just doesn’t make a lot of sense in a certain way.

[00:23:13] But 1 other thing too, like, you know, a lot of our audience or developers or entrepreneurial minded people that might be kind of breaking into this space as somebody like yourself, who not only is kind of broken in on the tech side, like, through, you know, ring and other these other Innovations you’re doing now, but also like on that commerce side, right?

[00:23:29] Like, which is so hard to kind of do really well at what advice do you have for young entrepreneurs or developers that might have that kind of bug around the entrepreneurial spirit that they want to break out there? Like somebody just kind of starting out now, if you knew what you knew, know now, then what would you recommend or what advice would you give to somebody?

[00:23:48] Luca: Probably the 3 most important things that were meaningful for me and my entrepreneurial journey. It was probably the 1st and these are chronological and how I learned them. So, you know, take this with a grain of salt. 1st 1 was don’t be the victim. I used to feel sorry [00:24:00] for myself and I felt sorry for myself.

[00:24:01] I would have never gotten here in the 1st place. So stop playing the victim. I think is 1. To learn how to communicate, right? I think the most powerful tool in your toolbox is your voice, whether you’re in sales or, you know, and now I’m probably going to my, my second, my 2. 5 point, which is like learn sales, learn how to sell, right?

[00:24:19] Because then it goes into my third point, which is like, I put an onus on marketing above all else, right? I’m a guy that’s like, Hey, you can build an amazing product. If you can’t market it, like it doesn’t matter. I know so many amazing product builders, but it starts and stops the marketing and it stops and starts with your ability to sell that product.

[00:24:34] Probably one, don’t feel sorry for yourself to learn how to communicate two and a half, learn sales three, learn how to market marketing is your most important skill set in your entrepreneurial tool toolbox. Somebody argued that, right? Like I go, I have debate with my product friends and other peers that are, you know, building companies.

[00:24:51] But that’s just my prerogative as a, as an elite internet marketer. I’m a little biased.

[00:24:55] Luke: Somehow gotten broken the crypto barrier into Walmart. I think people should it would be smart to [00:25:00] heed to that, that advice. I mean, but there’s something else too. And I, and I think we’ve all kind of worked together a bit too, between the communities like Brave and, and, and the pudgies, like, you know, whether it’s like on some of our house ads, even like where we’ve had that in and we’ve seen a lot of good feedback from there, but one thing that really does stand out working with you guys, there’s just like an openness there around like trying things out and like experimenting and stuff like that.

[00:25:20] And I feel like you don’t get that a lot. When you’re we’re trying to collaborate with other people. And I think that’s one of the things that really kind of makes you guys stand out too. And I’m sure it’s helped drive a lot of the success too. And just that openness to like ideas or just, yeah, let’s see, experiment or whatever too.

[00:25:35] And I think, you know, yeah, folks listen to what Luke is saying. It’s awesome. You guys are cooking with the right ingredients and it’s super exciting to see. Is there anything we didn’t cover that you want our audience to know about?

[00:25:48] Luca: Probably think the one that we didn’t take too much of a deep dive into is just abstract.

[00:25:52] So, you know, for those that are not familiar, you know, I think this is the next big phase within the igloo in terms of like where we’re contributing our time and our energy. [00:26:00] This idea that I think there’s a huge open ocean within the space around who owns consumer. And which in for layer is really the layer for consumer.

[00:26:08] So abstract is kind of self explanatory and it’s naming convention. This idea that blockchain needs to be the backend, not the front end. We want to abstract all the blockchain layers and ultimately we want to become the consumer chain. I think if I’m looking in crypto today, everyone’s working on general purpose, everyone’s trying to be this infra for these next generation of economies, but I think if you capture consumers, you can kind of upsell and expand into that.

[00:26:31] And I think we’re gonna take a really unorthodox approach. So obviously pudgies are where they are. They’re to continue going in the right directory. I mean, we’re confident of that. I think our entire business starts and stops the success of that ecosystem. But if you want to get in on the ground level of something interesting, we’re a team of winners.

[00:26:46] This is what we do. So I would love to see you guys and gals within the abstract ecosystem, having some fun.

[00:26:53] Luke: For some of the technical folks, right? Like is it its own blockchain or are you guys like bridging across other blockchains or how, how does that work a [00:27:00] little bit?

[00:27:00] Luca: Yeah, so L2. Oh, okay, cool. It’s on the ZK stack, so, obviously we believe that ZK is the endgame.

[00:27:07] I think the majority of L2s are on optimistic roll ups, and ultimately I think that’s going to be you know, a pivot that they’re all going to make. It’s not if, it’s when. Ultimately there’s a couple things that we’re working on that I think are really going to surprise this space. We announced Abstract Global Wallet.

[00:27:21] This idea of this unified synchronistic wallet across you know, the entire platform in the ecosystem, I think it’s something that’s never been done before on a chain level. So we’ve got some really interesting technological features, a couple of white papers that will be released from now until probably the end of November.

[00:27:35] So a couple of really great tech updates here coming, coming out shortly.

[00:27:40] Luke: Where can people go to follow along with Igloo or Pudgies or what you’re up to on socials?

[00:27:45] Luca: I appreciate that. Yeah. Give me a follow on all socials. Luca nets, L U C A N E T Z at pudgy penguins on all socials, Instagram, Tik TOK, Twitter, you won’t regret it.

[00:27:55] Definitely put a smile to your face and I’m confident you’ll be sharing content around and you want to follow [00:28:00] abstract. It’s at ABS on Instagram and at abstract chain on Twitter, and then. Igloo Inc, you know, on all socials. So I appreciate you taking the time, Luke, huge fan of Brave, huge fan of everything you guys have been doing over there and you and us and maybe one or two others, I think are the only people really pushing consumer adoption on blockchain rails in a way that I think is unprecedented.

[00:28:19] So, you know, keep up the good work over there.

[00:28:21] Luke: Yeah, yeah, you too, man. Much appreciated. I’d love to have you all back to as you guys are rolling out new things that you want people to know about, like it’s just like, seriously, one of the, one of these stories to follow, I think, in this space. And we’ve seen a lot of stories in this space.

[00:28:33] And so the, I like, thanks again, Luca, really appreciate it. And love to have you back sometime. Take care, man. Later. Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist podcast. To never miss an episode, make sure you hit follow in your podcast app. If you haven’t already made the switch to the Brave browser, you can download it for free today at brave.

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