Luke: [00:00:00] You’re listening to a new episode of The Brave Technologist. We’re recording on-site at Rare Evo in Las Vegas, where we sat down with Cody Carbone, who’s an American attorney and policy advocate who serves as the chief executive officer of the Digital Chamber of Commerce, the largest trade association representing the digital asset and blockchain industry.

He’s a prominent figure in shaping US policy for the cryptocurrency and Web3 sectors, leading the chamber’s advocacy efforts with the US Congress, the White House, and the federal regulatory agencies. In this episode, we discussed what the Clarity Act actually does and why it’s considered a pivotal moment for the industry, how the con- conversation in Washington has shifted as lawmakers ask for sharper questions than they did a few years ago, how founders are already feeling regulatory ambiguity today even without realizing why.

And now for this week’s episode of The Brave Technologist.

​

Luke: Cody, welcome to The Brave Technologist. How are you doing today? I’m doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, yeah. So you’re here at, Rare Evo talking about the CLARITY Act, and how it can reshape the future of digital assets in the United States.

for listeners who [00:01:00] haven’t been following the legislation closely, what is the CLARITY Act, and why is it kind of such a pivotal moment for the industry?

Cody: It’s a behemoth of a bill. It’s 600 plus pages. At the highest level, what it’s trying to do is if you’re going to issue a token in the United States, if you’re going to list a token in the United States, you know who your regulator is and what you have to do to comply.

For the longest time, people who are issuing or listing tokens in the United States didn’t know whether it was one of the two capital markets regulators, it was the SEC or the CFTC. They didn’t know what their token was. Was it a digital security? Was it a digital asset commodity? Was it a digital token?

There was all this confusion and chaos, and all of the answers were being provided from the regulators themselves just through enforcement actions. Right. And what this bill is trying to do is saying, “Hey, if you’re going to build here, we want you to build here. We’re going to give you very clear rules of how to comply.

We wanna make sure that people can feel comfortable here following the law.” Creates a disclosure framework, consumer protection, so it helps retail investors, helps institutional investors. There’s a tokenization framework in there. It is the [00:02:00] foundational regulatory floor for digital assets to thrive in the United States.

Luke: That’s a huge feat.

Cody: mean, w- and this is not new. While it seems like it’s, you know, the topic du jour right now, and everyone’s trying to push it because it’s finally, maybe, gonna go over to the finish line. If I have anything to do with it, it’ll get over the finish line. Right. But w- we have been talking about market structure legislation in Congress for almost a decade now.

Yeah, yeah. A- as soon as digital assets became, you know, really relevant to Washington, we’ve been talking about, “Hey, we need clear rules.” The SEC doesn’t know what they’re doing here. The CFTC doesn’t know what they’re doing here. We’ve got almost infighting between these two regulators. That’s not healthy- Right, right

for the industry who wants to build here. So this is not new, but now it’s finally, we’re at the time where crypto has become so massive with adoption in the United States, that regulators can’t ignore this anymore. Yeah. They want more developers to come on shore. We need this bill to get done, so it’s, it’s– now is a pivotal time.

Luke: Well, and it’s great, like, for people building in the space, too, because you’ve been kinda building in the dark a little bit, you know, like, not necessarily knowing what’s gonna… If we have a target on our [00:03:00] back or not and, you know, just kinda seeing the progress on this front is awesome, like.

Cody: And, and no one should have to build in the shadows.

Luke: Right, exactly.

Cody: And if you’re an American entrepreneur and builder, you should build– wanna build here. Right. And with- in the previous regimes and without this legislation, it was just too dangerous. Yes. It was too dangerous to be outward on what you were building. Even if you weren’t going in to talk to the regulators, just being, you know, having exposure with the market, being bui– a builder here, you were setting yourself up for potential criminal liability, civil liability, when you didn’t think you were doing anything wrong.

Exactly. And that’s a really scary place to be. It’s why the US saw this mass exodus of developers over the last few years to more friendly regulatory regimes. We wanna bring all that talent back on shore. We want people to feel comfortable engaging with their regulators to make sure, “Hey, we wanna build this product.

Tell us how to do so. We wanna follow the law. We’re all here to do the right thing, but we wanna make sure that our, you know, Americans can access this.” That’s what this bill is trying to do.

Luke: That’s awesome. Yeah, I mean, the chances of success for startups are slim enough that not having to, like- Just deal with all the legal and [00:04:00] trying to kind of use the special words and all that stuff.

We’re kind of building stuff so it’s, it’s awesome.

​

Luke: So if the bill passed tomorrow, what would be the first thing that becomes easier for a startup using blockchain technology in

Cody: VR?

Legal certainty. Yeah. So that, like, you can immediately… Yes, there’s going to be some compliance costs with trying to, you know, understand the new tax, but you’re not building with fear that the DOJ is going to come after you or a state attorney general is gonna come after you.

One of the most consequential pieces of this bill is the Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act, and it’s for developers specifically, that if you’re a non-custodial developer in this space Historically, [00:05:00] the previous administrations and the United States government has treated you as, well, even if you’re not custodying funds, you could be a money transmitter.

Right. We wanna regulate you like a bank. Yeah. That doesn’t make sense. Right. If you’re a validator, a node operator, a miner, you’re not a bank. You shouldn’t comply with Bank Secrecy Act regulations. It’s billions in, in, you know, compliance costs, and you just can’t actually comply with that. You don’t have the tools.

You’re not custodying funds. Yeah. What this part of the bill will do, the BRCA is saying, “Hey, if you’re not custodying anyone’s funds, you’re not a money transmitter, you’re not a bank, you’re just building the tools for other people to use. We’re gonna make sure that you’re exempt from all of those regulatory requirements.

You are protected from criminal liability. You’re protected from civil liability.” That is the peace of mind that every developer can feel comfortable day one as soon as this bill is signed, that I can build here knowing I’m not gonna get any enforcement action. Because if someone else uses my tool that I built, in an open source world, let’s say, and they used it for something nefarious and I had nothing to do with it, I wasn’t custodying funds, no one [00:06:00] hacked me, that you’re not criminally liable or civilly liable.

That’s a massive , sigh of relief, hopefully.

Luke: Oh, yeah. For developers in this space. I mean, like, we’re, we’re a browser. We have a wallet built in. and I think the thing that people don’t necessarily understand as clearly either is that Each state has separate types of, you know, compliance and processes and licensing, requirements and things like that, too.

So, like, having that clarity-

Cody: it’s impossible … it’s huge. I give you guys a lot of credit for continuing to build. Yes. And feeling comfortable putting yourselves out there in the United States, because I would feel like it’s too risky for me. Yeah. Personally. Because if you don’t have the legal clarity where you’re potentially, even if you think you’re building something with the best intention, but if some bad actor out there uses it for the wrong thing, that you could be criminal liable when you had nothing to do with the illicit activity.

Yeah. That seems unfair. Yeah. And that’s what this bill is trying to solve for.

Luke: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yeah. I mean, so you went from working in policy, to, to leading the world’s largest digital asset trade association. , What was the moment you realized the blockchain industry desperately needed a stronger voice in Washington?

Cody: For me, it [00:07:00] was 2019.

So I, I started my career in Washington on Capitol Hill. And then I went to Ernst & Young. So

Big Four accounting firm, not talking about blockchain at all. It was tax and audit. Very boring stuff to me, but critical stuff, but very boring. and in 2019, we had a blockchain practice at EY that I was bringing around Washington, DC, and it was the exact same time I was bringing them around Washington DC where Facebook, Meta, was launching their stablecoin- Yeah, yeah

Libra. Yeah. And they were getting grilled by the House Financial Services Committee, the Senate Banking Committee, because everyone was concerned about big tech becoming in, you know, interacting with finance. Right. And at that time, I was like, “Well, what are we talking about? Like, what, what is the point of the…

What’s a stablecoin? What is the blockchain? What is distributed ledger technology?” And then COVID hit, and I was just became personally fascinated. Yeah. and after reading, you know, Bitcoin Standard, Age of Cryptocurrency, I said, “There’s gotta be someone advocating for this tech right now.” Yeah. “This is the future.”

Yeah. “Like, this is [00:08:00] going to disrupt everything,” removing intermediaries, making payments cheaper. wasn’t even thinking about the nexus with AI at the time- Right … and agentic and how they’re going to be used. But like, a digitally native money that could be done easier, more efficiently, cheaper, to me was the great disruptor that we haven’t seen in a long time.

And so I was sitting there reading all these books. I started, like, personally getting involved in the space, and I said, “How can I take my advocacy skills, my network of knowing policymakers, knowing how to translate complex issues for a 75-year-old senator and make them, like, really understand it and why they need to support it?

How can I do that with this technology?” And then it was the, saw the Digital Chamber, uh, started leading their policy efforts. Now represent 250 companies in the space, but really just trying to make a difference. Our, our goal is clear rules of the road so builders like you guys can feel comfortable here, so we can have mass adoption of these really awesome, new innovative technologies so Americans can feel comfortable using it as well.

Luke: Let’s

drill down on one point. So mentioning it to, [00:09:00] trying to talk through policy with a 75-year-old, you know- Yeah, it’s tough … uh, congress- how is that? I mean, like, you’re, you have insight into this that a lot of people don’t from your point of view and vantage point. how is it trying to communicate the technology with members of Congress?

Like, are they getting it?is it a lot of their staffers helping them? Like, well, give us a sense of what that’s like.

Cody: Almost all of the above. Yeah. So some are getting it. Yeah. It’s taking a lot of time. Staff is critical. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think people realize how important staff is.

I’m a former congressional staffer. Mm-hmm. Your boss walks in every day, and he or she is saying, “What are the issues I need to focus on? What are my constituents calling me about? What is the press going to ask me about? And then get me up to speed quick.” Handing 1,000 different one-pagers to them, and trying to put a one-pager on what is blockchain technology is really, really difficult.

It’s very hard. So when I go in now and I talk to members of Congress, I never start with the tech. Yeah. I always talk, start with, like, practical use cases of, “Hey, there’s a way to send money cheaper [00:10:00] overseas. You’ve got a huge immigrant population in your district.” Trying to solve a problem for them that their constituents are facing, that they can rally behind.

I don’t even mention blockchain a lot of times. Right, right. I’ll say, “You have got, let’s say, a million constituents in your district in New York. They’re all sending money overseas. Right now it’s costing them 6.5% of every transaction. I have a way for you to support a technology where it’ll cost a fraction of the cost, and it can be sent instantaneously versus three to five days.”

Yeah. Their eyes light up. Yeah. I always talk about a use case that they can relate to, that solves a problem for them or their constituents. That’s the first meeting. Yeah. After two, three, four meetings, then we can get into tech. Okay, how does distributed ledger technology really work? What does it mean to remove intermediaries?

Where are the safeguards? How do you regulate front ends? What is DeFi? You start to get into all those conversations over time, but you have to get them interested first. You have to find that hook of why they should care. Once you’ve got that hook and you see the light bulb go off, that’s the game changer.

They’re a blank slate.

Luke: Yeah. [00:11:00] Well, how, how is it… I mean, D.C. is a political machine. Yeah. The state of politics is very tribal. it’s hard to find things that people have a good bipartisan, you know, spirit with. Or good bipartisan things often get kinda politicized in certain ways.

Like, how has that been navigating, such an important piece of policy in this environment where we have got the midterms coming up and things are very entrenched?

Cody: It’s really challenging. Yeah. I mean, what we’ve tried to do at the Digital Chamber is just make sure every policymaker knows that this is technology at its core.

Yeah. It’s nonpartisan. Yeah. This is not Republican technology. This is not Democratic technology. This is for every American. And we’ve talked about the data. We do a lot of polling data of who is using this technology. It’s Republicans and Democrats. Yeah. People aren’t using this technology saying, “Okay, I am a bleeding heart liberal,” or, “I am ultra, ultra MAGA conservative, and so I’m gonna use crypto.”

Yeah. No. It’s your young Democrats, your old Democrats, your young Republicans, old Republicans. We actually did a poll last year where it said most digital asset holders lean Democrat. Now, if [00:12:00] you’re looking at, like, the political landscape right now, and you’ve seen the president’s involvement, and you’ve seen the votes, most people from the outside think, “Oh, this is just Republicans support this.”

Right. Right. It’s not the case. Yeah. So that has been a way that we’ve been able to really talk to Democrats and educate them, and saying, “Hey,” and, and Republicans as well. It’s like, this is for everyone. Yeah. There’s no reason for this to be partisan. There’s gonna be partisan elements in from Washington all the time.

Nothing I could do about that. Sure. Sure. I don’t want this to be partisan, but if we could continue to educate every single office and say, “Hey, there’s a reason for you to like this. There’s a reason your constituents are using this and adopting it at a- Almost like rapid, rapid rate. Then they start to get it, and it becomes very easy for them to understand, okay, this is not something that I need to feel uncomfortable about supporting because my counterpart on the other side of the aisle support it.

Luke: Are there certain, approaches that you kinda tailor towards the audience in the room? Like, I mean, ‘cause the, one of the benefits I’ve seen, and I’ve talked to a lot of people on both sides of the aisle about this. But one thing that’s been nice to see is that there’s actually kind of a lot more meeting in the middle around, the benefits.

Because, you know, whether it’s, it’s serving underserved [00:13:00] people in districts or, the unbanked or whatever, and kinda giving them a shot at, you know, getting into the system. or, you know, more of a libertarian slant to it. it seems the, the technology is just kind of an upgrade all around.

are you able to go in there with the same run book, or are you having to kinda tailor it, or i- is it more effective to do it one way or another?

Cody: I always tailor the message. Yeah, yeah, yeah. some people might not like this online, but as an advocate- Yeah … when I am talking to a Democrat, I go in with Democratic talking points.

Yeah. There are different things that they care about than when I’m talking to a Republican. I go in with more Republican talking points. The libertarian mindset about, you know, removing the need for banking partners, removing intermediaries, less government. that is really, really solid talking point for Republicans.

Yeah, yeah. Democrats don’t wanna hear that. Right. They want, they want more government. They’re concerned about having people have free reign. So they wanna hear more about the use cases. but then there are talking points that resonate because, again, it’s non-partisan technology with both sides. I’ve always been fascinated that the poorest districts in America [00:14:00] are either represented by, it’s usually, like, some of the leading left offices.

Congressional Black Caucus, Congressional Hispanic Caucus Or it’s the Freedom Caucus, the most Republic- or most conservative offices. Those two diametrically opposed parts of each party, the furthest left and the furthest right, they represent some of the poorest districts in America. Right. And so sometimes I will try to bring them together and say, “Hey, there is a way that you guys are leading in the unbanked and underbanked.”

Their biggest hurdle in getting a bank account is not necessarily the banks are too far away or they live in banking deserts, it’s the cost. Right. They can’t, you know, accept, uh, some of the, you know, mandatory minimums or the overdraft fees. Yeah. There is a reason for them to empower themselves with self-custody to access financial services by onboarding through blockchain technology and digital assets.

I will bring those same talking points to the Freedom Caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus, and both of their eyes will light up. That’s awesome. So there is, there is messaging and use cases that will work for everyone, and that’s just the tech. Yeah. That’s… It’s because it’s [00:15:00] nonpartisan. But I will go in with some of the messaging, and I will tailor it to the specific office.

Luke: I think it’s key for people to hear about, too, ‘cause then it opens up, like, the educational process, like, for people to know about these use cases and know how it helps out, you know, on, on both sides of it. so I mean, I think, there’s been a lot of changes with this administration, right?

and obviously, like we’ve seen, the Genius Act pass, and, and Clarity’s out there. What’s kind of the current status of digital asset regulation in the United States right now? and if you’re a founder listening to this, how much clarity do you actually have today compared to, a year or two ago?

Cody: A lot more compared to a year or two ago. Yeah. There has been a complete 180 with this administration. the best thing that the White House has done is it… From out of the gate, if you look at the personnel in the administration, whether it’s the Treasury Secretary, the Commerce Secretary, SEC Chair, CFTC Chair, they’re all pro digital assets.

Yeah. Now, the Federal Reserve chair was investing in Bitcoin. Personnel is policy in DC. You can’t just teach some of those leaders when they’re trying to run an agency, blockchain 101. They have to get it. They have to [00:16:00] know it. They have to know why it’s critical for America to lead. That has been cr- crucial, because the previous administration had people who thought this technology was a fad or it was dangerous.

Mm-hmm. And they thought we should eradicate it completely from the United States. So it’s a very different mindset. It allows for builders and developers right now, entrepreneurs in the digital asset space, to feel comfortable engaging with their regulators. That’s how it should be. Yeah. I would not ca- I would not, uh, recommend to any of the companies I represent in Washington during the previous administration, just go to the SEC and talk to them.

Right. No. And that’s their role. Right. That is their… Their role is to talk to companies and tell them how they can comply with the rules so they can exist here. Yeah. Because Americans are using the technology. Yeah. It’s not a fad. We’ve now gotten over that. The adoption numbers are going up every day. So having that change in perception and that change of approach from this administration, day one already created a complete culture shift.

Nice. Where you’ve got an SEC chair that is saying, “Hey, Brave, come in and talk to me. Hey, you know, this token issuer, come in and talk to me. We’re not going to [00:17:00] set… It’s not a trap. There’s not gonna be an enforcement action. We wanna tell you how to work with us. We wanna make sure you’re successful, because we don’t wanna see investors get hurt.”

That is a complete 180. And then you started to see some of the, like, actual a- approach change as those people have taken over. Some of the guidance start to come out from those agencies, some of the rulemakings. And then you saw legislation on the stable coin side. Yeah. That was the first place we started, getting the Genius Act passed, a bipartisan vote.

So it is a complete 180. It is now a safe time for people to operate in the United States and to build in the United States. You’ve got a government that wanted to work with you instead of against you. That is the

massive

shift.

Luke: Is it too early, or are we already starting to see some of the stats, turn around, - with more development happening?

Cody: Oh, we’re starting to see some of the stats turn around. Yeah, yeah. The influx of developers coming from the UAE, from Asia, from Latin America back to the United States has been remarkable. We’ve started to see, too, what clear regulation can do for the market. Yeah. Once you pass the Genius Act, which [00:18:00] was our stablecoin regulatory framework, US dollar-backed stablecoin market almost doubled overnight.

Yeah. It’s gone now up over 50%. We’re now at $300 billion. That’s what clear regulation can do for the States. It helps the market.

Luke: Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I mean, I think, Washington also kind of has a reputation for regulating what it doesn’t necessarily understand. When you’re sitting across a, a regulator or a staffer from a senator, like, what’s the biggest misconception about digital assets you find yourself correcting over and over again?

Cody: Oh, that’s a good question. the first time I ever went in and talked to a senator, and I said I was here to represent the digital asset industry, he said, “Show me a Bitcoin.” I pull out my phone, and I’m like, “All right, I can show you how you can invest.” “No, no, like a physical Bitcoin. I wanna see it.” we get a lot of those on the mining side- Yeah

where people are expecting, like, digital asset mining means hard hat and su- Geology. Geology. I would say overall the biggest misconception is they don’t find any utility in the technology. Yeah. I’m not hearing that people are actually using it. Why do people use it? What problems are you trying to [00:19:00] solve?

Okay, you’ve talked to me about an inflation hedge, or you’ve talked to me about, like, cheaper payments. Is that real? They’re not using it yet. That needs to change. AI was theoretical to them, and they didn’t think it was real until, like, ChatGPT and Claude became a thing, where they’re like, “Oh, I’m using this in my everyday life.”

Until there is more adoption acceptance, we’re always going to have to be starting from a, almost a place of zero and educating them up on the potential of this technology. They need to start using it. It’s why, like, killer use cases like Brave, which, like, people use browsers. Right, right. People use APRs.

They understand it. To me, success over the next 10 years is every regulator in Washington is using blockchain technology, and they have no idea.

Luke: Yeah. Well, and it’s one of the tricky things, too, ‘cause I had, I had Hester Peirce on twice, before, uh, well, during the Gensler era and after. And one of the interesting things that she mentioned was that, like, they’re tuning into podcasts.

They’re having to do, almost an arm’s length away because, as regulators, they’re kind of, like, forbidden from being, or prohibited from being able to actually use the technology. Yeah. [00:20:00] Like, are those blockers in place with, congressional staffers too? Is there any discussion around, like, loosening that up a little bit so people can adopt the technology?

Cody: We, we wrote a letter to the Trump administration, right at the beginning of the administration, to loosen that up. So it is mostly an executive branch, I would say, ban- Yeah … where they can’t interact with digital assets at all. Yeah. if they’re gonna interact with any kind of token, they have to do it through Testnet.

it’s a terrible way. Yeah. Like, how can you truly understand the technology if you can’t play around with it? So we’re trying to get it treated like any other financial asset. Right. They can have equities. They just have to disclose it what they have, but they can play around. They can trade. Congress doesn’t have that.

Okay. Cool. Congress, congressional staff, Congress, they can invest. They can play around with it. So that has been really helpful on the legislative side. Yeah. But to your point, like, I give a ton of credit to this SEC, this CFTC. It’s why a change in administration has been helpful, too, because Paul Atkins and Mike Selig, leading the two eight Mar- capital markets industries, they were both in the private sector over the last 10 years.

They played with this technology. [00:21:00] Right. Right. They were heavily involved. Paul Atkins was representing crypto companies in Washington. Mike Selig was at a law firm representing crypto companies on the legal side. they’re the most intimate regulators we have, and that’s because we got the right people in place who said, “Hey, I understand this is the future.

Not only do I know government, but I know the technology.” For the staff who have been there a long time- They don’t have that experience. Right. Right. And so they’re always starting from behind. We need to fix that.

Luke: Well,

I know we were talking a little bit too,before we started recording about the DC Blockchain Summit.

Like, are, are these types of events also helpful where you can get, tech partners? Like, how much could the, the tech industry be, taking more of a role in, like, in, in helping to do these types of events where people can try the tech out?

Cody: Hugely important. Okay. Come to Washington. We host the DC Blockchain Summit.

It is really the only policy event that is talking about this technology in Washington. It is really hard to get the lawmakers to come here, meet us on the ground, or to go to your home office. They, they just don’t understand it. It’s not, like, the best place. They don’t [00:22:00] know, am I really going to go, like, to, you know, your headquarters in San Francisco?

Yeah. Go to Washington, engage with them, have conferences like this, show them the adoption. Mm. Show them that people care about this. Show them that there is interest, there’s enthusiasm, and what clear rules can do. Again, always tell them, “There’s a problem out there. This technology exists. It’s not going away.

We can help you solve these problems.” You have to go meet them on their turf.

Luke: Awesome. Yeah. No, that’s great. I mean, Brave’s kind of deeply invested in the idea that users should own their data and their identity. how does on chain identity and sovereign data fit into the regulatory conversations you all are having?

Cody: Critical. Yeah. this has been one of our biggest talking points forever, that there is a, finally, a, a technology allows people to empower themselves. For the longest time, I think people have traded their privacy, their autonomy, for convenience. Yeah. and people want that back. Yeah. People, I don’t think, don’t understand, as technology has [00:23:00] boomed over the last 25 years, what they were giving up.

what you’re giving up in terms of your daily commute, to give all of your free information to Google Maps. Yeah. That they have now all of your data, your tracking data. People don’t get that. They don’t understand the trade-offs. Now they’re starting to. Yeah. Because there are companies like yours who are telling them, “Hey, there’s a better way to do things,” where you can still get the convenience of the application of what you’re trying to do.

You can still search the internet, but you can do so in a more safer way. You can empower yourself. And have your own identity. People don’t wanna give up their address every time they go to a bar. Exactly. Exactly. Like, it’s… And so, for the first time, that narrative has shifted culturally.

Yeah. And it’s shifting in Washington as well, where we have regulators who understand that, like, wait, okay, we can authenticate people without needing their Social Security number, and hopeful- like, s- putting them up for a threat of a risk of a data hack.

Luke: Right. I mean, that’s the part, like, that’s really kind of been eye-opening too, is that, you know, back in 2015, ‘16, we were like, dude, this data collection’s just a huge liability.

it’s [00:24:00] a huge, and now with- And the government doesn’t want that. Yeah. A- and now with AI and with all these things where, you know, sovereignty’s super important, at the national security level, at the, the corporate level, like, it, it does seem like people are kind of waking up to this a little bit.

Cody: Finally. Yeah. And so, like, that cultural shift needs to continue because it’s onl- it’s going to be the push from the people- Yeah … that get Washington to move and to accept this.

Luke: Yeah, for sure. so I think if you fast-forward five years, what does the US regulatory landscape for digital assets realistically look like?

and what has to go right between now and then to get it there?

Cody: So

I, again, we’re nonpartisan, but politics matters. Yeah. we have to have leaders. We’re gonna have a presidential, we’re gonna have a midterm election in the next five years, and a presidential election in the next five years. We have to get, and continue to have, personnel that care deeply about this technology, and see that disruption is a good thing.

So that is critical. I think over the next five years, seeing the traditional institutions get more involved, seeing the adoption rate from retail get more involved, that this becomes mainstream. Where I mentioned, my goal is that people are using this technology and they [00:25:00] don’t even know it.

Awesome. And I’m hoping my grandmother uses blockchain. I’m hoping the 85-year-old senator is using blockchain, and they have no idea because it has become so ubiquitous with how we transact, how we share data, how we share our identity, where it’s all built in a, a more technological, friendly way. We empower ourselves.

We can do that. Yeah. We need the rules, we need the legislation, and we need the personnel in Washington to accept it.

Luke: Is there, like, a clear kinda north star for adoption that it’s a signal, once we get this, we’ve kind of made it, that comes to mind?

Cody: I think even just getting the CLARITY Act passed- Yeah, yeah, yeah

will, will be close to making it. Yeah, yeah. because then that gives you durability if you’re a builder in this space, where you’re not living by the whims of each administration. Yeah. You don’t have to worry about in two years, let’s say you get a really hostile administration, like the previous one, to digital assets.

Like, okay, I gotta pack up shop and move back to the UAE. Yeah. If you get legislation that can stand the test of time, and you know that there are clear guardrails that you can build, not for the next two years but for the next [00:26:00] two decades- Right … that’s where adoption will flourish.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for, for the time today. Where can people,, go look up what you guys are doing? Digitalchamber.org. So .org always confuses , people, but we’re a nonprofit. we’re here to push for the industry. So go on our website, look at us. We’ve all, all our social channels are at The Digital Chamber, Twitter, LinkedIn.

mine’s Cody Carbone DC. But we’re always pushing, we’re always looking to hear from you out there. Why are you building, what are you building, and how we can be helpful. Awesome. Well, Cody, thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate the conversation, and, uh, yeah, good luck with getting the CLARITY Act passed.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. All right. Excellent.

Luke: Thanks for listening to the Brave Technologist Podcast. To never miss an episode, make sure you hit follow in your podcast app. If you haven’t already made the switch to the Brave browser, you can download it for free today at brave.com and start using Brave Search, which enables you to search the web privately.

Brave also shields you from the ads, trackers, and other creepy stuff following you across the web.